Just avoid looking at anyone for longer than a second or two, but don’t try to look like you are avoiding looking at anyone. If in close proximity, acknowledge their existence and then focus on something else. If they start conversing, reciprocate but do not try to keep the conversation going if it trails off. If they don’t appear to open to a conversation and you are in close proximity, a small nod to indicate you noticed them and then changing your focus is a really good way to indicate you noticed them, but are not interested in interacting with them.
This really puts victims at ease. I mean strangers. Yeah, strangers.
Seriously though, just existing in the same space and not forcing interaction does put people at ease. Being overly friendly or acting like you are trying to avoid noticing their existence is suspicious for good reasons.
So I have to run through a check list for every single encounter I have just to not be treated like an animal. I can’t just exist and go about my life? I mean, I don’t see this helping the problem.
A person proposed an issue, on how they’re treated and not knowing what to do. Your response was a check list to go through and things you have to do, but but too much, and don’t ignore certain people. Your solution to the problem is unreasonable, that’s what I’m saying.
Is paying attention to whether you are staring too difficult?
Is being aware that initiating or dragging out conversations with women you don’t know often comes across as intimidating too difficult to understand?
The last two sentences is a summary and all that someone needs to remember, but would be too vague without the previous context. There isn’t a less complicated answer.
Is paying attention to whether you are staring too difficult?
Is being honest too difficult? There is no room to have a conversation here with how you’re presenting things. This isn’t just “don’t stare” and you presenting it as such is arguing in bad faith. What was said, incase you somehow forgot what you yourself wrote was
Just avoid looking at anyone for longer than a second or two, but don’t try to look like you are avoiding looking at anyone. If in close proximity, acknowledge their existence and then focus on something else. If they start conversing, reciprocate but do not try to keep the conversation going if it trails off. If they don’t appear to open to a conversation and you are in close proximity, a small nod to indicate you noticed them and then changing your focus is a really good way to indicate you noticed them, but are not interested in interacting with them.
Man, seems like it’s more than just not staring to me. You actually call out " don’t try to look like you are avoiding looking at anyone" which is the opposite of staring. So you need to look at them, but not too much, just the magical right amount that you should know.
Is being aware that initiating or dragging out conversations with women you don’t know often comes across as intimidating too difficult to understand?
Nah, but I should be able to just keep to myself and not have a conversation without being treated like a predator for it. Again, you’re being extremely dishonest in how you frame things. You wrote the whole list of things you think people should do and now you act like “it’s just two simple things” ignoring what you wrote. Hell, I’d think these two message were written by two different people they’re so disconnected.
There isn’t a less complicated answer.
JFC. You waffle so often I don’t think you even know what you mean. " Is paying attention to whether you are staring too difficult?" also “it’s a complicated answer.” So why did you frame it like it was just two simple things when you know it’s a complex answer? Because you’re being dishonest.
This shouldn’t be a complex answer. The answer should be “don’t treat people like shit without knowing them.” That should be the answer. Not a list of magical rules every man has to follow just to make sure they get treated like a human.
Man, seems like it’s more than just not staring to me. You actually call out " don’t try to look like you are avoiding looking at anyone" which is the opposite of staring. So you need to look at them, but not too much, just the magical right amount that you should know.
Ah yes, the magical right amount of: a second or two
Nah, but I should be able to just keep to myself and not have a conversation without being treated like a predator for it.
Good news, you can! That follows the recommendation to not initiate a conversation. Hell, if they happen to start one you aren’t obligated to participate!
Again, you’re being extremely dishonest in how you frame things.
No, I’m speaking from experience.
JFC. You waffle so often I don’t think you even know what you mean. " Is paying attention to whether you are staring too difficult?" also “it’s a complicated answer.” So why did you frame it like it was just two simple things when you know it’s a complex answer? Because you’re being dishonest.
lol
The answer should be “don’t treat people like shit without knowing them.”
What do you mean by not treating people like shit? Please explain without any examples, because that would make it complicated and dishonest.
Lol so much bs in a single response without saying a damn thing. About what I expected. You even laughed at your own nonsense, so at least there’s that I guess.
It’s clear you’re not interested in a convo. Just misrepresenting things said over and over while not contributing to the conversation at all. I’m sure you have lots of experience being treated like a creep with that mindset, which makes this list make a lot of sense.
If you’re being treated like an animal in every encounter you have, that’s probably a you issue. This advice will not help if no matter what you do or where you find yourself people perceive you as a non-human animal.
If for some reason you are purposefully exaggerating, and know that this only really applies in specific instances, then it probably will still not help you because I’m not sure someone legitimately concerned about others would exaggerate in this situation.
The reality is that no one is asking you to do anything. Women don’t owe you anything and if you don’t like the way they treat you and if you’re unwilling to make yourself seem like less of a threat then feel free to be upset at men that have put us all in this position. Women should not have to sacrifice their safety for your comfort. If you want to feel more comfortable around them you might need to put in the work to make yourself comfortable to be around.
The fact that I have to go out of my way to make myself seem less like a threat, simply because of who I am, so that I’m treated like a human. There is this idea that you should be able to be yourself and not apologize for it. But I have to run through situations and make sure I do things, but not too much. I can’t just keep to myself without being treated like I’m some threat. It’s insulting and it errodes empathy.
Women should not have to sacrifice their safety for your comfort.
Who the fuck is saying this? I’m asking to be treated like a person and not a predator simply because of my gender. I thought treating people poorly based solely on their gender was wrong. Guess that only goes one way.
What are women doing to make me feel like they won’t attack me? Do they have to disprove stereotypes just to be treated like a person? No. I have to make sure I make women feel comfortable and do this checklist of things just to be treated normally? I can’t just keep to myself?
Why can’t we just treat people like people and not judge an entire gender, on either side, with one sweeping stroke.
You don’t “have to” do anything. If you want to be treated in a specific way, you may have to act a specific way. That’s how society is. How are you not being treated like a human? You’re being treated the way that person treats all men. You’re not being targeted specifically. That IS how they treat humans. In what direction do you think it erodes empathy? Is it eroding your empathy towards women?
I’m saying it. Right now. If a woman feels safer pretending to be on the phone with a friend if she finds herself alone with someone she feels threatened by then she should do so without guilt. That goes regardless of sex or gender or any characteristic of either party.
Women have to do a lot every day to be viewed as equal or more than their gender. Women are groped in stores and on transit and in public places. They are made to feel unsafe and disrespected by a large portion of society. Why can’t they just be themselves? Why can’t they just act normally?
It’s very easy for men to say “why can’t we treat everyone like equals” when women are still struggling for equality. Trust me, that’s what we want, but we’re not there yet, and you focusing on how a subset of women treat men in specific circumstances is part of the problem. Women would gladly trade, so our main concern could be that men crossed to the far side of the street instead of is this guy just waiting for the right moment. It’s not a fun or healthy way to live. It seems like you’re right that empathy is eroding, because if I was a guy I’d be able to recognize that it’s not personal and she’s doing it for her safety.
I think that in this thread there is a lot of talking over people. It seems like you are coming from the empathy angle and trying to offer the most realistic solution, but a lot of the commentors aren’t talking about the actual solution. A lot of them are simply stating “i should not have to ensure i do not look like a threat” in a vacuum, which is true. They’re not arguing against the idea that “women should not have to worry about men”, they’re simply idealizing. Unfortunately things become more complicated when trying to blend those ideas.
Me: exist without an extensive list of precautions.
Women: oh no!
But to be honest, I’ve stopped looking at people at all because this costs me so much energy and at some time I just gave up. If this makes me look like a threat then I’m sorry.
It isn’t an extensive list, I just explained it with examples to avoid being too vague. It is just two things:
Don’t focus too much or actively ignore other people.
Mind your own business unless they start a conversation and don’t force it to continue.
Worrying too much about how others see you to the point that you are uncomfortable will make others uncomfortable. If you can be comfortable with yourself others will be more likely to feel comfortable around you.
Honestly my being an introvert with ADHD makes noticing people but not paying too much attention easy because I’m thinking about something else and am not looking for a conversation anyway! Threads like this and talking to women I know in person about what they find creepy is how I found out it is the least threatening way to act. Just got lucky tbh.
I’m an introvert as in focused internally on my own thoughts. I don’t have social anxiety and am comfortable talking to strangers if they start the conversation.
You asked “How do I react” and then when given a sympathetic and detailed answer seem to act as though it’s a huge imposition being demanded of you.
The reality is that you don’t have to do anything and no one has demanded you do anything. Sometimes, allyship requires effort. If you think you might be making someone uncomfortable and there is something you can do to ease that discomfort, it’s your choice to make, but please don’t act like it’s women who are out there putting society in this position. It’s men who are doing it. You’re also may be “sorry” about it, but clearly not sorry enough to want to change to help.
Most women do not perceive every man as a threat. There are some that do I’m sure, but generally there’s a specific set of circumstances where it becomes an issue. If you don’t want to take those opportunities to exercise allyship by making them more comfortable, you don’t have to.
Just avoid looking at anyone for longer than a second or two, but don’t try to look like you are avoiding looking at anyone. If in close proximity, acknowledge their existence and then focus on something else. If they start conversing, reciprocate but do not try to keep the conversation going if it trails off. If they don’t appear to open to a conversation and you are in close proximity, a small nod to indicate you noticed them and then changing your focus is a really good way to indicate you noticed them, but are not interested in interacting with them.
This really puts victims at ease. I mean strangers. Yeah, strangers.
Seriously though, just existing in the same space and not forcing interaction does put people at ease. Being overly friendly or acting like you are trying to avoid noticing their existence is suspicious for good reasons.
So I have to run through a check list for every single encounter I have just to not be treated like an animal. I can’t just exist and go about my life? I mean, I don’t see this helping the problem.
Is anyone treating you like an animal in real life, or are you taking online comments that are generalizations about some common behaviors personally?
A person proposed an issue, on how they’re treated and not knowing what to do. Your response was a check list to go through and things you have to do, but but too much, and don’t ignore certain people. Your solution to the problem is unreasonable, that’s what I’m saying.
I don’t understand what’s so hard to follow.
Is paying attention to whether you are staring too difficult?
Is being aware that initiating or dragging out conversations with women you don’t know often comes across as intimidating too difficult to understand?
The last two sentences is a summary and all that someone needs to remember, but would be too vague without the previous context. There isn’t a less complicated answer.
Is being honest too difficult? There is no room to have a conversation here with how you’re presenting things. This isn’t just “don’t stare” and you presenting it as such is arguing in bad faith. What was said, incase you somehow forgot what you yourself wrote was
Man, seems like it’s more than just not staring to me. You actually call out " don’t try to look like you are avoiding looking at anyone" which is the opposite of staring. So you need to look at them, but not too much, just the magical right amount that you should know.
Nah, but I should be able to just keep to myself and not have a conversation without being treated like a predator for it. Again, you’re being extremely dishonest in how you frame things. You wrote the whole list of things you think people should do and now you act like “it’s just two simple things” ignoring what you wrote. Hell, I’d think these two message were written by two different people they’re so disconnected.
JFC. You waffle so often I don’t think you even know what you mean. " Is paying attention to whether you are staring too difficult?" also “it’s a complicated answer.” So why did you frame it like it was just two simple things when you know it’s a complex answer? Because you’re being dishonest.
This shouldn’t be a complex answer. The answer should be “don’t treat people like shit without knowing them.” That should be the answer. Not a list of magical rules every man has to follow just to make sure they get treated like a human.
Ah yes, the magical right amount of: a second or two
Good news, you can! That follows the recommendation to not initiate a conversation. Hell, if they happen to start one you aren’t obligated to participate!
No, I’m speaking from experience.
lol
What do you mean by not treating people like shit? Please explain without any examples, because that would make it complicated and dishonest.
Lol so much bs in a single response without saying a damn thing. About what I expected. You even laughed at your own nonsense, so at least there’s that I guess.
It’s clear you’re not interested in a convo. Just misrepresenting things said over and over while not contributing to the conversation at all. I’m sure you have lots of experience being treated like a creep with that mindset, which makes this list make a lot of sense.
If you’re being treated like an animal in every encounter you have, that’s probably a you issue. This advice will not help if no matter what you do or where you find yourself people perceive you as a non-human animal.
If for some reason you are purposefully exaggerating, and know that this only really applies in specific instances, then it probably will still not help you because I’m not sure someone legitimately concerned about others would exaggerate in this situation.
The reality is that no one is asking you to do anything. Women don’t owe you anything and if you don’t like the way they treat you and if you’re unwilling to make yourself seem like less of a threat then feel free to be upset at men that have put us all in this position. Women should not have to sacrifice their safety for your comfort. If you want to feel more comfortable around them you might need to put in the work to make yourself comfortable to be around.
This is missing the entire point.
The fact that I have to go out of my way to make myself seem less like a threat, simply because of who I am, so that I’m treated like a human. There is this idea that you should be able to be yourself and not apologize for it. But I have to run through situations and make sure I do things, but not too much. I can’t just keep to myself without being treated like I’m some threat. It’s insulting and it errodes empathy.
Who the fuck is saying this? I’m asking to be treated like a person and not a predator simply because of my gender. I thought treating people poorly based solely on their gender was wrong. Guess that only goes one way.
What are women doing to make me feel like they won’t attack me? Do they have to disprove stereotypes just to be treated like a person? No. I have to make sure I make women feel comfortable and do this checklist of things just to be treated normally? I can’t just keep to myself?
Why can’t we just treat people like people and not judge an entire gender, on either side, with one sweeping stroke.
You don’t “have to” do anything. If you want to be treated in a specific way, you may have to act a specific way. That’s how society is. How are you not being treated like a human? You’re being treated the way that person treats all men. You’re not being targeted specifically. That IS how they treat humans. In what direction do you think it erodes empathy? Is it eroding your empathy towards women?
I’m saying it. Right now. If a woman feels safer pretending to be on the phone with a friend if she finds herself alone with someone she feels threatened by then she should do so without guilt. That goes regardless of sex or gender or any characteristic of either party.
Women have to do a lot every day to be viewed as equal or more than their gender. Women are groped in stores and on transit and in public places. They are made to feel unsafe and disrespected by a large portion of society. Why can’t they just be themselves? Why can’t they just act normally?
It’s very easy for men to say “why can’t we treat everyone like equals” when women are still struggling for equality. Trust me, that’s what we want, but we’re not there yet, and you focusing on how a subset of women treat men in specific circumstances is part of the problem. Women would gladly trade, so our main concern could be that men crossed to the far side of the street instead of is this guy just waiting for the right moment. It’s not a fun or healthy way to live. It seems like you’re right that empathy is eroding, because if I was a guy I’d be able to recognize that it’s not personal and she’s doing it for her safety.
I think that in this thread there is a lot of talking over people. It seems like you are coming from the empathy angle and trying to offer the most realistic solution, but a lot of the commentors aren’t talking about the actual solution. A lot of them are simply stating “i should not have to ensure i do not look like a threat” in a vacuum, which is true. They’re not arguing against the idea that “women should not have to worry about men”, they’re simply idealizing. Unfortunately things become more complicated when trying to blend those ideas.
K
Me: exist without an extensive list of precautions.
Women: oh no!
But to be honest, I’ve stopped looking at people at all because this costs me so much energy and at some time I just gave up. If this makes me look like a threat then I’m sorry.
It isn’t an extensive list, I just explained it with examples to avoid being too vague. It is just two things:
Worrying too much about how others see you to the point that you are uncomfortable will make others uncomfortable. If you can be comfortable with yourself others will be more likely to feel comfortable around you.
AUDHD: “Let’s create a huge problem where none needs to exist, ok?”
Honestly my being an introvert with ADHD makes noticing people but not paying too much attention easy because I’m thinking about something else and am not looking for a conversation anyway! Threads like this and talking to women I know in person about what they find creepy is how I found out it is the least threatening way to act. Just got lucky tbh.
I’m an introvert as in focused internally on my own thoughts. I don’t have social anxiety and am comfortable talking to strangers if they start the conversation.
You asked “How do I react” and then when given a sympathetic and detailed answer seem to act as though it’s a huge imposition being demanded of you.
The reality is that you don’t have to do anything and no one has demanded you do anything. Sometimes, allyship requires effort. If you think you might be making someone uncomfortable and there is something you can do to ease that discomfort, it’s your choice to make, but please don’t act like it’s women who are out there putting society in this position. It’s men who are doing it. You’re also may be “sorry” about it, but clearly not sorry enough to want to change to help.
Most women do not perceive every man as a threat. There are some that do I’m sure, but generally there’s a specific set of circumstances where it becomes an issue. If you don’t want to take those opportunities to exercise allyship by making them more comfortable, you don’t have to.
You say that like a joke but that is unironically what I do. Am I an idiot?
The only joke part is calling them victims. All of the rest is honest advice and you are doing the right things.