The correct reply is “Don’t broadly generalize anyone.”
Clever swap-around games distract yourself from the point more than anything, and the people you’re trying to present this to don’t care about reasonable arguments OR racism.
Well, yeah, that’s the goal, and most people follow most of it. But for those people who have blind spots like op, that’s the exercise you want to do to see if you’re being an asshole.
You’ll see lots of different people saying lots of different things. But as far a the post is concerned, nobody made that point.
Women saying that they don’t feel safe in certain situations because they have no way to know if a guy will end up deciding to rape them is absolutely not the same as saying all men are rapists. They are clearly not, but saying “not all men” (which is an obvious thing) every time a woman expresses her frustration about having to be almost constantly alert just feels like a need to be more offended than worried about the rapey world we are living in.
It’s the same kind of distraction as “all lives matter”. We all know that all lives matter, but it’s not about that.
I wish I wasn’t on mobile because the whole thing needs much more nuance.
White men saying that they don’t feel safe in certain situations because they have no way to know if a black guy will end up deciding to rob them is absolutely not the same as saying all black men are robbers. They are clearly not, but saying “not all black men” (which is an obvious thing) every time a white man expresses his frustration about having to be almost constantly alert just feels like a need to be more offended than worried about the robby world we are living in.
Change a few words and you’re my racist uncle. That’s probably not good…
I feel like almost every time I’ve seen “not all men” in the wild, it’s in response to someone actually making generalized statements about men, not just someone stating that they must be cautious.
I can find somebody that says any crazy thing anywhere. That’s why I asked for a citation. So, I’m glad you clarified that it was random women in your vicinity saying this.
BTW, this is not an experience I’ve had. If women around you feel compelled to say “Men are rapists”, maybe you should stop to think about why that is.
So, I’m glad you clarified that it was random women in your vicinity saying this.
It’s not random women, it’s specifically self-identitied feminists that have said that around me, actually. I’ve never heard a woman who said that not be a radical feminist
Intend to avoid feminist spaces online because the toxicity in referring to absolutely coalesces in those spaces, but if I did I’m certain I’d be able to cite an example of two (back in my Facebook days I could do that easily by going to some friends pages and scrolling for a minute)
BTW, this is not an experience I’ve had. If women around you feel compelled to say “Men are rapists”, maybe you should stop to think about why that is.
That’s nice, maybe hang around more feminist spaces then, cuz I’ve seen it a disturbing number of times in my life, and I’ve only been an adult 11 years. Granted, that’s about the only place I’ve heard that said
Fuck, man, I literally had one woman tell me I was a perpetuator of rape culture because I’m a man, and when a friend of mine pointed out that I’m both a victim of rape & the mythical “rumour that he raped someone he didn’t” said woman doubled down and tried to claim those were also my fault
Cool thing is, I’m an adult, and can separate the fact that there are terrible people who believe and espouse those ideas & that they tend to be feminist women, and thus don’t believe they all (or anything close to a majority) think or say that. I just find it irritating how often I see people deny it happens when it fucking does & its directly victimized me and others I care about in the past
Not sure if it was based on my sex strictly speaking, but my vice principle back in the day made me take off my shirt and proceeded to feel me up. She snagged me on suspicion of setting off stink bombs, then when we got to her office she asked what i had in my jacket. For unrelated reasons, it was about 2 dozen apples which I had every right to have, and she proceeded to confiscate them. When i lightly protested, literally just saying that other staff memebers gave me the apples, she told me she was not going to start a search for the stink bombs which was clearly motivated by the apples. She went through all my stuff, then made me take off my shirt. She then patted me down, chest and all, despite having no shirt on. In retrospect that was definitely firable, but teenage me didnt really care beyond the fact that she was a bitch.
Edit: And thats not derogotory towards women, i describe everyone that behaves in a childish or petty manner as a bitch. And yes, I understand that that is a form of societal sexism in relating poor qualities towards women, but most of the time its pretty obvious given context that I am not refferring to bitches in any way to do with them possibly being a woman. In fact now that i think of it i mostly call dudes bitches but i think thats because i mostly hang out with dudes.
Edit edit: also, im pretty confident that she is not a systemic issue, you just reminded me of something fucked up that happened to me and im adhd so i had to share.
Thanks for sharing. I’m sorry that happened. Shit people come in all flavors. I wish the universe were fair.
And this is why it’s so important to teach kids about consent and to treat women molesters the same way we treat men. If feminism has taught me anything, and I’ve learned quite a bit, it’s that the patriarchal system sucks for men too.
It assumes men are insatiable and therefore can’t be victims. It assumes women are pure and naive and submissive. It’s ridiculous and let’s women off the hook for horrible shit.
If “men are rapists” isn’t the point, then why say it? Y’all say one thing and keep claiming you mean something else. Maybe you guys are telling the truth the first time and just backpedaling when people call you out on your jackassery.
I had a snarky answer but deleted it and am telling you sincerely to stop seeing “the others” as an undifferentiated blob because that brings you nowhere in a discussion and eventually it will harm the way you see the world.
Tbh it really just sounds like you wanted to type “black people are rapists”
It’s always “black” slotted in on this argument, especially in regards to sexual assault. Unless it’s a reference to violence, then the comparison pulled out is usually “muslim.”
The reason black is used as the stand in example is because it forces you (assuming you’re not racist) to see the issue with generalizations that you’re ignoring because the original group is culturally ok to hate, while black people are not culturally ok to hate. It’s to make you see your own prejudices, and to do so uses the most glaring example that has been widely publicised since the 60s at least. Could they slot in Inuit instead of Black? Sure, but that doesn’t have the same impact when you read it. And you’re supposed to be upset about it, but not at those forcing you to look inward with the comparison, rather at yourself and those that make you ok with holding your prejudices.
Those examples are used because there is plenty of well-known racism and religion…ism (forgot the word) discussion along those lines. It’s like asking why people use squares and circles as their go-to example shapes, it’s part of the cultural consciousness. They’re using those examples because they know people consider them to be racist, and using that to imply that “men are rapists” is similarly sexist. It’s easy to twist this behavior into something problematic, but it’s really not.
You really don’t understand rhetoric, do you? No, no, I get it. Not all of us were blessed with a 6th grade education. Probably explains your racism too. Just be glad you can read and write at all.
Let’s play a game. Swap the demographic to see if it’s sexist.
“Men are rapists”
Now let’s swap it out for a different demographic.
“Black people are rapists”
Wow, turns out y’all are a bunch of sexist pigs.
None of this kind of discussion is intelligent.
The correct reply is “Don’t broadly generalize anyone.”
Clever swap-around games distract yourself from the point more than anything, and the people you’re trying to present this to don’t care about reasonable arguments OR racism.
Well, yeah, that’s the goal, and most people follow most of it. But for those people who have blind spots like op, that’s the exercise you want to do to see if you’re being an asshole.
And it is a reasonable argument.
Whoosh
“Men are rapists” was nobody’s point, “men are rapists” is the strawman on which “not all men” relies.
Then why have I seen multiple adult women say that and mean it?
I’m with you that the dude you’re replying to is gross, but let’s not pretend reality isnt what it is, yeah?
You’ll see lots of different people saying lots of different things. But as far a the post is concerned, nobody made that point.
Women saying that they don’t feel safe in certain situations because they have no way to know if a guy will end up deciding to rape them is absolutely not the same as saying all men are rapists. They are clearly not, but saying “not all men” (which is an obvious thing) every time a woman expresses her frustration about having to be almost constantly alert just feels like a need to be more offended than worried about the rapey world we are living in.
It’s the same kind of distraction as “all lives matter”. We all know that all lives matter, but it’s not about that.
I wish I wasn’t on mobile because the whole thing needs much more nuance.
Change a few words and you’re my racist uncle. That’s probably not good…
I feel like almost every time I’ve seen “not all men” in the wild, it’s in response to someone actually making generalized statements about men, not just someone stating that they must be cautious.
I feel the opposite, that’s the thing about feelings. The case in point, which is the post, is not about “all men”.
Where? If it’s such a common occurrence, you should be able to cite some.
Yeah, sure, I’ll cite you my real life experiences, no problem
Shall I upload my memory directly to your brain, or store it off-site for you?
I can find somebody that says any crazy thing anywhere. That’s why I asked for a citation. So, I’m glad you clarified that it was random women in your vicinity saying this.
BTW, this is not an experience I’ve had. If women around you feel compelled to say “Men are rapists”, maybe you should stop to think about why that is.
If you can’t win an argument without insinuating your opponent is a rapist maybe you should stop to think about why that is.
It’s not random women, it’s specifically self-identitied feminists that have said that around me, actually. I’ve never heard a woman who said that not be a radical feminist
Intend to avoid feminist spaces online because the toxicity in referring to absolutely coalesces in those spaces, but if I did I’m certain I’d be able to cite an example of two (back in my Facebook days I could do that easily by going to some friends pages and scrolling for a minute)
That’s nice, maybe hang around more feminist spaces then, cuz I’ve seen it a disturbing number of times in my life, and I’ve only been an adult 11 years. Granted, that’s about the only place I’ve heard that said
Fuck, man, I literally had one woman tell me I was a perpetuator of rape culture because I’m a man, and when a friend of mine pointed out that I’m both a victim of rape & the mythical “rumour that he raped someone he didn’t” said woman doubled down and tried to claim those were also my fault
Cool thing is, I’m an adult, and can separate the fact that there are terrible people who believe and espouse those ideas & that they tend to be feminist women, and thus don’t believe they all (or anything close to a majority) think or say that. I just find it irritating how often I see people deny it happens when it fucking does & its directly victimized me and others I care about in the past
Why do crazy loud people say crazy loud things? Who knows, who knows.
Call me when someone with any kind of power to influence your life does something to you based on your sex. Then we’ll fight to stop that.
Not sure if it was based on my sex strictly speaking, but my vice principle back in the day made me take off my shirt and proceeded to feel me up. She snagged me on suspicion of setting off stink bombs, then when we got to her office she asked what i had in my jacket. For unrelated reasons, it was about 2 dozen apples which I had every right to have, and she proceeded to confiscate them. When i lightly protested, literally just saying that other staff memebers gave me the apples, she told me she was not going to start a search for the stink bombs which was clearly motivated by the apples. She went through all my stuff, then made me take off my shirt. She then patted me down, chest and all, despite having no shirt on. In retrospect that was definitely firable, but teenage me didnt really care beyond the fact that she was a bitch.
Edit: And thats not derogotory towards women, i describe everyone that behaves in a childish or petty manner as a bitch. And yes, I understand that that is a form of societal sexism in relating poor qualities towards women, but most of the time its pretty obvious given context that I am not refferring to bitches in any way to do with them possibly being a woman. In fact now that i think of it i mostly call dudes bitches but i think thats because i mostly hang out with dudes.
Edit edit: also, im pretty confident that she is not a systemic issue, you just reminded me of something fucked up that happened to me and im adhd so i had to share.
Thanks for sharing. I’m sorry that happened. Shit people come in all flavors. I wish the universe were fair.
And this is why it’s so important to teach kids about consent and to treat women molesters the same way we treat men. If feminism has taught me anything, and I’ve learned quite a bit, it’s that the patriarchal system sucks for men too.
It assumes men are insatiable and therefore can’t be victims. It assumes women are pure and naive and submissive. It’s ridiculous and let’s women off the hook for horrible shit.
If “men are rapists” isn’t the point, then why say it? Y’all say one thing and keep claiming you mean something else. Maybe you guys are telling the truth the first time and just backpedaling when people call you out on your jackassery.
Who did?
Who are you lumping me with?
I had a snarky answer but deleted it and am telling you sincerely to stop seeing “the others” as an undifferentiated blob because that brings you nowhere in a discussion and eventually it will harm the way you see the world.
“A woman said something mean, so I’m going to use that to generalize the opinions of all women, everywhere. No, I’m not a misogynist! How dare you.”
The irony of this comment being posted in this thread is palpable.
Tbh it really just sounds like you wanted to type “black people are rapists”
It’s always “black” slotted in on this argument, especially in regards to sexual assault. Unless it’s a reference to violence, then the comparison pulled out is usually “muslim.”
Ever notice that? I wonder why…
The reason black is used as the stand in example is because it forces you (assuming you’re not racist) to see the issue with generalizations that you’re ignoring because the original group is culturally ok to hate, while black people are not culturally ok to hate. It’s to make you see your own prejudices, and to do so uses the most glaring example that has been widely publicised since the 60s at least. Could they slot in Inuit instead of Black? Sure, but that doesn’t have the same impact when you read it. And you’re supposed to be upset about it, but not at those forcing you to look inward with the comparison, rather at yourself and those that make you ok with holding your prejudices.
Those examples are used because there is plenty of well-known racism and religion…ism (forgot the word) discussion along those lines. It’s like asking why people use squares and circles as their go-to example shapes, it’s part of the cultural consciousness. They’re using those examples because they know people consider them to be racist, and using that to imply that “men are rapists” is similarly sexist. It’s easy to twist this behavior into something problematic, but it’s really not.
Oh i know, but sonce the commenter wanted to play fifth grade nuance, i figured i’d frame it at their level
So you were only pretending to call them racist?
Alright, how about “women are rapists”? Or “Muslims are rapists”? Or whatever oppressed demographic you want. LGBTQ, religious, whatever.
We found a volunteer for the snake pit
So you think black people are all snakes? That’s pretty racist.
There it is again!
What, you being racist again?
says the one taking every opportunity possible to denigrate black people in this thread.
You really don’t understand rhetoric, do you? No, no, I get it. Not all of us were blessed with a 6th grade education. Probably explains your racism too. Just be glad you can read and write at all.