• Wogi@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    Hey I’m a terminally online leftist.

    Fuck Russia, fuck China, fuck the US too. I’m not going to gaslight myself in to thinking someone else is doing it right just because the West is also fucked.

    Working class people all over the planet are getting fucked by billionaires who’ve purchased their governments, few places are exempt from that problem.

    • Allonzee@lemmy.world
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      1 month ago

      This is seeing the wood for the trees.

      Nation states largely exist to protect the power of their respective elites. No country is immune, but there are shining examples in the world, like the nordic model, that other nations choose to ignore because, unlike those nations, most nation’s decision maker’s goal isn’t to maximize the well being of their people, but to maximize their own individual power, which capital is a form of.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report

    • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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      1 month ago

      What’s your opinion of the West lending aid to Ukraine to help it defend itself?

      • Wogi@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        I think the military industrial complex will be the end of us all. Generally, I think military spending is fucking atrocious and is a huge contributor to the myriad problems we as people face on a daily basis.

        While I agree, Russia has no right to annex territory in Ukraine or Georgia or anywhere else, and I agree, like any rational person will, that Ukraine has every right to defend itself to the fullest extent, including matching on Moscow and fucking up the place, that’s decidedly not our problem.

        Ukraine found a fucking massive oil ans natural gas deposit, large enough it threatens Russia’s market dominance. Ukraine kicked out it’s Russian puppet. Russia wants control back and will bleed itself dry to obtain it. In so doing, they’re bleeding us too.

        I wish Ukraine the best, I really do. But at the top, this isn’t about defending the freedom of a downtrodden underdog. That’s a convenient story to sell to the American public. It’s about resources, and resource wars will only become more common.

        • barsquid@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          How is this bleeding the US? I thought we were giving them cast-offs the military had no interest in using anyway.

          • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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            1 month ago

            It’s whatever rhetoric needs to be used in order to discourage US support for Ukraine. But they’re definitely not pro-genocide, honest.

            • Wogi@lemmy.world
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              1 month ago

              What’s funny is how frequently I get downvoted to oblivion for daring to suggest that genocide isn’t acceptable in any circumstances, including when voting for US presidents.

              It’s you guys that seem to be ok with it when your guy is the one supporting it.

              • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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                1 month ago

                Genocide is always evil.

                When confronted with two evils, one must choose the lesser evil if there is no realistic alternative; as letting the greater evil in helps literally no one.

                Is that too complex? Do I need to simplify it further?

                • hark@lemmy.world
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                  1 month ago

                  “Genocide is good if ‘the lesser evil’ is doing it!”

                  You claim genocide is always evil yet you make excuses for it. What’s the difference between an authoritarian dictatorship carrying out genocide and a plutocracy giving you a Fisher-Price voting ballot that will result in genocide no matter which option you pick?

              • barsquid@lemmy.world
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                1 month ago

                If we had STAR voting I could give these two guys a 1 and a 2 while progressives all get 8 to 10. Unfortunately, that isn’t a reality we exist in. In reality only one of these two guys will win.

                There is no realistic scenario this year where a third party candidate receives enough EC votes to become president. Like both guys would have to die before the election and the third party would have to be a popular household name.

                Given that these two are the only realistic candidates, my only option on this issue is throwing my vote in the trash (expressing that one doesn’t give a fuck how many Palestinians die, no preference either way) or voting for the person I think will kill fewer Palestinians.

        • Optional@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          that’s decidedly not our problem.

          Disagree. The putin propaganda parties are fucking up every democracy possible - most importantly, or perhaps most relevantly to this topic, the US. And the invasion and destruction of Ukraine is the proof that it’s working. We’ve got to help Ukraine win, rebuild, and be a peaceful and prosperous democracy because russia will stop at nothing to bend everything to them.

          trump and the Qult will stop at nothing to help putin destroy the US ideals and become a malleable Christofascist oligopoly like they are. If you think Ukraine is not our problem you’re not addressing our problem. Ukraine is the leading edge of the problem.

          • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
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            1 month ago

            fucking up every democracy possible - most importantly, or perhaps most relevantly to this topic, the US

            I’m sorry but that’s peak lib. “We’re a democracy, they’re the bad guys, they’re affecting us, the US is the center of the world”.

            To start off: fuck the imperialist illegal invasion of Ukraine, Russia’s government is on a spiral towards fascism and anyone who actively supports the current Russian government is a ghoul.

            Now let’s examine closer the far right propaganda and where it’s coming from. Ben Shapiro, Russian asset? The Daily Wire, Russian asset? Jordan Peterson, Andrew Tate, Russian assets? Sure, they may align in some of their goals, but these people have their own agenda and a funding of their own: western capitalist sources. The same applies in Europe for most far right influencers, propagandists, politicians and mouthpieces. Like, come on, who owns private media in Europe, leftist progressive movements or capitalist companies interested in their own profit? Our social media is mostly American, with the most popular platforms being Xitter, IG, Facebook… and of course TikTok, which everyone talks about being Chinese, and fair enough, but nobody says anything about the rest of social media in Europe being US-based. There’s PLENTY of far right in the west without the need for Russian intervention in that process, and while it’s true that there are links, it doesn’t mean that Russia is to blame, just rather collaterally profiting from it. You have a ton of interested parties such as tobacco, fossil fuels, multinational companies and such, profiting from harming the left in Europe and the US, and fascism is a really good tool historically to get rid of those pesky leftists. Let’s not even comment on western governments directly supporting fascism all over the world, such as in the case of Pinochet in Chile or Franco in Spain. Let’s not pretend that the west is the enemy of fascism and the upholder of democracy, we’re more than capable of creating fascism by ourselves. It’s important to understand the degree to which Russian interference is helping the far right and fight against it, but remember, all of this is done with a vast majority of western support and funding, and would likely happen anyway.

            Regarding the peace negotiations. I don’t know why in this platform, which is supposedly progressive, every time peace negotiations are brought up, people are labeled Putin bots or tankies. Like, how the fuck do people think most wars end, with unconditional surrender of one side or total conquest? (There were in fact peace talks towards the beginning of the war)[https://archive.ph/Y2Ok8], and they almost managed to get to a peace deal, which sadly never ended up happening, for disputed reasons that I won’t get into. The only “progress” of this war so far are some territorial gains from one side or the other going back and forth, hundreds of thousands of deaths, and millions of refugees, on both sides of the conflict mind you. “But saying peace negotiations amounts to saying Putin’s invasion was right!” No, it amounts to wanting the least amount of deaths and suffering possible and reaching an AGREEMENT between the countries, not an unconditional surrender of Ukraine. Given the history of usage of weapons by the EU for the past half a century, it’s no wonder that many people on the left are skeptical of increased military budgets, especially when linked to NATO. Sure, the EU should have a military alliance, but why does the US have to be in there? Do you really think that a non-US-intervened cooperative military in the EU wouldn’t be a more stabilizing, less threatening force in the region? Why push NATO towards the East, which Russia (understandably) perceives as a threat, when instead NATO could be dismantled and Europe could have its own military alliance?

            Fuck, even if we go to the modern state of Russia, how did it even appear? The current Russian oligarchs and kleptocrats that control the country are a consequence of the 90s neoliberal shock therapy upon the dismantling of the USSR, when the country was illegally and corruptly auctioned not even to the highest bidder, but to the most corrupt one. This was all done under the watchful direction of MIT economist “experts” and our beloved IMF. The west has a huge part to play in this, and we’re reaping the benefits of enabling an imperialist capitalist oligarchy in the rule of one of the world’s biggest powers.

            So all in all, we have a ton of problems with the far right to looks inwards, more than we look outwards. We must keep sight of the Kremlin propaganda for sure, and fight against it, but we must keep an even closer look at the propaganda coming from ourselves, and fight it even harder since we’re actually responsible for it.

            • Optional@lemmy.world
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              1 month ago

              I’m sorry but that’s peak lib.

              “volodya_ilich”, you’re not convinced russian disinfo is in the conservative politics? Well, I certainly won’t convince you. I will block you though.

              • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
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                1 month ago

                I’m western-european mate, I prefaced my long-ass comment with a condemnation of the russian government and the war, and said multiple times through it that russian propaganda has an influence if you cared to read it. But sure, block me because you’re too bothered to read a comment because the nickname sounds russian (it’s a reference to Lenin because I’m a commie, the current Russian government is as far from communism as the US)

        • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          While I agree, Russia has no right to annex territory in Ukraine or Georgia or anywhere else, and I agree, like any rational person will, that Ukraine has every right to defend itself to the fullest extent, including matching on Moscow and fucking up the place, that’s decidedly not our problem.

          How convenient that every time a moral issue comes up that we’re on the right side of, it’s not our problem.

          • Patapon Enjoyer@lemmy.world
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            1 month ago

            How convenient that every time a moral issue comes up that we’re on the right side of, it’s not our problem.

            I think the last time this happened was World War 2.

            and even then internment camps happened

            • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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              1 month ago

              I think the last time this happened was World War 2

              No, don’t worry, MLs advocated us staying out of the ‘Capitalist Imperialist War’ there too, until their favorite Nazi-allied country got betrayed.

              Unsurprising that you find preventing the genocide of Ukrainians to be the ‘wrong side’ of this war.

          • Wogi@lemmy.world
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            1 month ago

            It’s only a moral issue because it’s being billed as one. For the prime actually making the decisions it’s strictly strategic, you’re fooling yourself if you think it’s more than that. You think all of a sudden their making altruistic choices?

            It’s greed. It’s all greed. Always has been. This greed is just convenient.

        • Justas🇱🇹@sh.itjust.works
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          1 month ago

          Military industrial complex is relatively tiny.

          If you want to see who will be the end of us, follow the bigger fish.

          Oil companies will destroy the environment.

          Agrochemical companies will destroy biodiversity.

          Food companies will make us obese.

          Social media companies will misinform and divide us.

    • el_bhm@lemm.ee
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      1 month ago

      You are just a libtard with brainrot and not a proper tankie leftist!

      Where is my main man Youghurt and OmegaHaxor at?! Gish galop that western ass.

    • Rinox@feddit.it
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      1 month ago

      few places are exempt from that problem.

      Please provide examples

            • Rinox@feddit.it
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              1 month ago

              Google it. “Fidel Castro wealth” search turns up with various claims ranging from a net worth of 100 million to “more than 900 million $”. And that’s just a small part of what he had access to.

              When you are the sole and absolute ruler of a country, you have access to all the wealth of the state and its people (which are fucking poor) and have little to no accountability.

              .Do you really think he was as poor as all the other people of Cuba?

              Btw, source: https://www.yahoo.com/news/fidel-castros-amassed-massive-fortune-142104351.html

              • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
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                1 month ago

                Oh yeah, the famous Forbes claims of Castro being rich because “he had control of the state in a communist country where the means of production belonged to the state”. No reference to his frugal lifestyle, no serious data backing up the claim other than “YOLO”. The fact that he could conceivably and potentially have access to certain goods or services that other people didn’t have access too, and an assumption from Forbes that he did access them and “died a multi-millionaire”, tells us more about Forbes and the writer than about Fidel.

    • ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world
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      1 month ago

      Tankies have less hesitancy calling more libertarian leftists and liberals “fascists” than the various flavors of the modern far-right, because “Stalin’s definition of fascism”.

        • ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          I’m moving around online leftist circles for more than a decade. First I wanted to have some unity with tankies, but I had to slowly learn that it’s a futile attempt, with the main issue being their idea of unity being total assimilation.

          First of all, just like their authoritarian-right counterparts, don’t play by the rules, but expect other to do so, except it’s only for the libertarian-left (or anyone who’s not as authoritarian as Stalin). This leads to them forming online (and from what I’ve heard, real life) spaces to their liking, usually with the intent to turn what they call “moderates” into “full-fledged Marxist-Leninists”. If you don’t they will bait others to harass you, usually by finding something in your past. Often they also work in tandem with far-right groups by providing anonymous information to them, and register accounts to their forums (kiwifarms etc) to get help from them. They often managed to even manipulate the discourse around social causes, they singlehandedly managed to remind people that “spook” also used to be an anti-black slur (they got really angry at egoist leftist memes), and part of the reason why some online leftists are sometimes terminally online about loli/shota (around that time, they really wanted to cancel sex-positive leftists en masse, consensual-noncon also got a hit but that wasn’t really part of a fandom that needed a “safe space” for right wingers, hence the frequent cooperation with the right).

          One of their greatest display of “manipulating the rules” is their constant redefinition of authoritarianism into “the will of the people” rather than “a hierarchial system of power formed around a select number of people, whom must be submitted to by the rest of the people”. On some level, authoritarianism is “will of the people”, but tankies (likely intentionally) forget that dictators having pet projects and banning things they don’t like isn’t the same as liberation of the people who often want to free themselves from those strongmen, and not replace them with someone who promises to be kind. This is not their only use of the “redefinition game”: they often like to redefine porn as something inherently exploitative, while promising general sexuality will be fine, then they proceed to act in ways people who define porn as “an ungodly act of perversion”, but pretend they’re doing it in favor of “progress” rather than saving the masses from the eternal burning fire. On paper, “authoritarian social justice” sounds good, but in practice it can be only be done with things that are “concrete”. You can stop people from denying the holocaust, you probably could also stop social media accounts calling all LGBTQ+ people pedophiles, but then there’s the issue of sexual objectification in media, which will be on very shaky grounds, and should not be put into law. China put a lot of effort into trying to regulate it, but other than tankie puriteens on Twitter, no one likes it, and often gets workarounds.

          Sorry for my personal ramble here, even forgot why I was answering your comment, but the TLDR is that the auth-left and auth-right have way more in common than the auth-left and lib-left, which is especially sad since capitalism itself is a form of authority around wealth.

    • Gigasser@lemmy.world
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      1 month ago

      I think the problem with tankies is that they let their perception of what is “pragmatic” and “realistic” poison and overpower their true ideals, which tends to steer them towards authoritarianism. So scared of losing, that they lose themselves in pursuit of victory.