• Diva (she/her)@lemmy.ml
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    9 months ago

    Oh boy liberal vs conservative, what a wide variety of political opinion allowed for by the “financial times”

      • Telodzrum@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        They’re not, this is the traditional polling version of liberal vs. conservative — the one that everyone who is not terminally online uses and can understand as it has been around for over a century.

          • Telodzrum@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Exactly. And these terms have been used in both academic and general public forums for a very long time. It’s such a weird thing to get hung up on.

        • OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml
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          9 months ago

          They’re not, this is the traditional polling version of liberal vs. conservative — the one that everyone who is not terminally online uses

          How do you describe the right wing ideology of liberalism in a not confusing way without rejecting liberalism=left as a definition?

          • Telodzrum@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Easy, I use political science terms and traditional analysis instead of terminally online ones. The important thing to remember is that liberal vs. conservative is an ideological midpoint for the discourse being discussed and/or measured. You can apply this to any group or discourse — in the OP it’s being applied to the whole of a nation’s body politic. However, you can just as easily apply such a division to only self-described leftists — thus creating a conservative subgroup who still exist well to the left side of the entire population, but are to the right of the other ideological half of the spectrum of this subgroup.

            There isn’t an objective midpoint in ideology that applies across political systems and time. Which is good, because the overall trend throughout history is leftward and a relative system is able to both capture that as well as provide descriptive value for a given measurement period.

            • OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml
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              9 months ago

              Easy, I use political science terms and traditional analysis

              I literally use “liberal” to mean liberal capitalist because I read political economics books. When you say “political science” and “traditional analysis” you are referring to something that is a lot less universal than you think it is.

              Also like how do you talk about liberalism and neoliberalism in a non confusing way while also claiming liberalism is left? You didn’t answer my question you just took a swipe.

              The important thing to remember is that liberal vs. conservative is an ideological midpoint for the discourse being discussed and/or measured

              Except this is a very narrow overton window(more like an arrow slit) and if you limit your discussion to it you miss a lot of context and analysis.

              Which is good, because the overall trend throughout history is leftward and a relative system is able to both capture that as well as provide descriptive value for a given measurement period.

              This is kinda unfalsifiable

              • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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                9 months ago

                Also like how do you talk about liberalism and neoliberalism in a non confusing way while also claiming liberalism is left?

                You make it clear with your audience that you’re talking about the “liberal” in the economic sense and not “liberal” in the philosophical sense. From a philosophical perspective is the difference between being pro changes (liberal) vs being against changes (conservative), and as the person previously mentioned, in this sense you could say there are conservative communists (want to follow Marx’s philosophy to the letter) and liberal communists (believe in the basic principles but feel some things need to be adjusted), just like there are liberal conservatives (believe in small/efficient State but individual freedoms) and conservative conservatives (social conservatives).

                • OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml
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                  9 months ago

                  You make it clear with your audience that you’re talking about the “liberal” in the economic sense and not “liberal” in the philosophical sense.

                  Liberalism as a philosophy is connected to the economic structure? Are you referring to a different philosophy and calling it liberal?

                  From a philosophical perspective is the difference between being pro changes (liberal) vs being against changes (conservative)

                  Okay, yes, you are. Liberalism is literally the status quo.

                  in this sense you could say there are conservative communists (want to follow Marx’s philosophy to the letter) and liberal communists (believe in the basic principles but feel some things need to be adjusted)

                  You literally can’t be a marxist and take Marx as dogma. Marxism is a process based ideology.

          • PatMustard@feddit.uk
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            9 months ago

            the right wing ideology of liberalism

            WTF do you think “liberalism” means? It’s the opposite of authoritarianism, it’s not really left or right.

            • banneryear1868@lemmy.world
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              9 months ago

              Liberalism is individualist above all in my mind. What advances your personal freedom is the best thing for everyone. Neoliberalism is a post-Keynesian consensus that believes this is most achievable through equal opportunity in the free market.

              I also like Phil Ochs definition of liberal from the 60s, "ten degrees to the left of center in good times, ten degrees to the right of center when it affects them personally.

              • PatMustard@feddit.uk
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                9 months ago

                OK, that’s a new one to me. Know that when you use the word in most contexts that’s not what people think you mean by it!

      • GreatAlbatross@feddit.uk
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        9 months ago

        Also, outside of opinion pieces, the FT tends to be fairly central, as it’s generally purchased by people who want information to make financial decisions with.

    • banneryear1868@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      FT is pretty solid when it comes to data analysis like this. The point is to show a specific trend not to encompass all the data in the sources.

      • Poplar?@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        I think they understood “liberal” to mean “classical liberal” which obviously would have the issue they point out. But FT seems to be using “liberal” to mean “progressive” or something like that.