• Telodzrum@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    63
    arrow-down
    22
    ·
    9 months ago

    They’re not, this is the traditional polling version of liberal vs. conservative — the one that everyone who is not terminally online uses and can understand as it has been around for over a century.

      • Telodzrum@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        16
        arrow-down
        7
        ·
        9 months ago

        Exactly. And these terms have been used in both academic and general public forums for a very long time. It’s such a weird thing to get hung up on.

    • OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      8
      arrow-down
      17
      ·
      9 months ago

      They’re not, this is the traditional polling version of liberal vs. conservative — the one that everyone who is not terminally online uses

      How do you describe the right wing ideology of liberalism in a not confusing way without rejecting liberalism=left as a definition?

      • Telodzrum@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        25
        arrow-down
        12
        ·
        9 months ago

        Easy, I use political science terms and traditional analysis instead of terminally online ones. The important thing to remember is that liberal vs. conservative is an ideological midpoint for the discourse being discussed and/or measured. You can apply this to any group or discourse — in the OP it’s being applied to the whole of a nation’s body politic. However, you can just as easily apply such a division to only self-described leftists — thus creating a conservative subgroup who still exist well to the left side of the entire population, but are to the right of the other ideological half of the spectrum of this subgroup.

        There isn’t an objective midpoint in ideology that applies across political systems and time. Which is good, because the overall trend throughout history is leftward and a relative system is able to both capture that as well as provide descriptive value for a given measurement period.

        • OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          13
          arrow-down
          12
          ·
          edit-2
          9 months ago

          Easy, I use political science terms and traditional analysis

          I literally use “liberal” to mean liberal capitalist because I read political economics books. When you say “political science” and “traditional analysis” you are referring to something that is a lot less universal than you think it is.

          Also like how do you talk about liberalism and neoliberalism in a non confusing way while also claiming liberalism is left? You didn’t answer my question you just took a swipe.

          The important thing to remember is that liberal vs. conservative is an ideological midpoint for the discourse being discussed and/or measured

          Except this is a very narrow overton window(more like an arrow slit) and if you limit your discussion to it you miss a lot of context and analysis.

          Which is good, because the overall trend throughout history is leftward and a relative system is able to both capture that as well as provide descriptive value for a given measurement period.

          This is kinda unfalsifiable

          • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            9 months ago

            Also like how do you talk about liberalism and neoliberalism in a non confusing way while also claiming liberalism is left?

            You make it clear with your audience that you’re talking about the “liberal” in the economic sense and not “liberal” in the philosophical sense. From a philosophical perspective is the difference between being pro changes (liberal) vs being against changes (conservative), and as the person previously mentioned, in this sense you could say there are conservative communists (want to follow Marx’s philosophy to the letter) and liberal communists (believe in the basic principles but feel some things need to be adjusted), just like there are liberal conservatives (believe in small/efficient State but individual freedoms) and conservative conservatives (social conservatives).

            • OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              4
              ·
              9 months ago

              You make it clear with your audience that you’re talking about the “liberal” in the economic sense and not “liberal” in the philosophical sense.

              Liberalism as a philosophy is connected to the economic structure? Are you referring to a different philosophy and calling it liberal?

              From a philosophical perspective is the difference between being pro changes (liberal) vs being against changes (conservative)

              Okay, yes, you are. Liberalism is literally the status quo.

              in this sense you could say there are conservative communists (want to follow Marx’s philosophy to the letter) and liberal communists (believe in the basic principles but feel some things need to be adjusted)

              You literally can’t be a marxist and take Marx as dogma. Marxism is a process based ideology.

                • OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  arrow-down
                  2
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  9 months ago

                  The issue is that your definition is “dumbed down” to the point that it loses utility when discussing politics and conceals cultural hegemony.

                  • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    2
                    arrow-down
                    1
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    9 months ago

                    No it doesn’t because, you just have to specify what you mean because the word has multiple definitions and in OP’s example it’s the definition I’ve provided that’s being used and you should have known because of the context (liberalism as opposed to conservatism).

      • PatMustard@feddit.uk
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        9 months ago

        the right wing ideology of liberalism

        WTF do you think “liberalism” means? It’s the opposite of authoritarianism, it’s not really left or right.

        • banneryear1868@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          9 months ago

          Liberalism is individualist above all in my mind. What advances your personal freedom is the best thing for everyone. Neoliberalism is a post-Keynesian consensus that believes this is most achievable through equal opportunity in the free market.

          I also like Phil Ochs definition of liberal from the 60s, "ten degrees to the left of center in good times, ten degrees to the right of center when it affects them personally.

          • PatMustard@feddit.uk
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            9 months ago

            OK, that’s a new one to me. Know that when you use the word in most contexts that’s not what people think you mean by it!