I would be sympathetic if the Uyghur stuff was true.
Do you have any substantial sources, to objectively prove your claims? I’ve never seen anything convincing.
I’m not intending to simp for China. They are authoritarian. But I’m also not going to fall for propaganda especially if it’s false. The USA has a motive for making the masses hate China.
There is plenty of evidence widely available from organizations like human rights watch and amnesty international. Claims that deny any evidence exist of the persecution of China’s Muslim population rely on logical fallacies to attempt to obscure the validity of the body of evidence. Namely ad hominem attacks against the individual who first gathered the evidence to begin with.
While the researcher obviously has biased opinions about the CCP, that doesn’t affect the validity of the evidence gathered, most of which comes directly from publicly available information released by the CCP itself, or from leaked internal communication from party members that have been widely verified by reputable journalists and organizations specializing in human rights violations.
While I personally wouldn’t claim that there is a genocide as we traditionally understand it has occurred, it’s hard to deny that the Uyghur people aren’t being systemically oppressed or that significant human rights violations haven’t occurred.
Simply looking at publicly available census data releases by the CCP we can tell that Uyghur people are being driven from culturally important sites that are being replaced by ethnically Han Chinese, and that Uyghur populations have been shrinking at a worryingly abnormal rate.
If we look at recent history of ethnic conflict within China in tibet, Manchuria, and inner Mongolia, I fail to see why it’s logical to assume that the accusations of crimes against humanity is pure propaganda.
Han chauvinism is well documented, and even Mao Zedong spoke about how it would negatively affect the future of the party. Ethnic conflict/cleansing has been a constant in the region and is part of the foundational history of modern China.
While I personally wouldn’t claim that there is a genocide as we traditionally understand it has occurred, it’s hard to deny that the Uyghur people aren’t being systemically oppressed or that significant human rights violations haven’t occurred.
It is politicization to be overly critical of China over what is a reasonable solution to peace and prosperity in the region, while the west contributes to 1000x worse treatment of Palestinians. That politicization gap shows that there is zero concern for actual genocide or persecution and instead a desire for (or avoidance for Israel for) political criticism independent of prosperity/facts.
It is politicization to be overly critical of China over what is a reasonable solution to peace and prosperity in the region
So… Forcing an entire ethnic group into concentration camps, forced migration, forced assimilation, and depopulation is reasonable? For what, because there were a couple attacks from some extremists?
while the west contributes to 1000x worse treatment of Palestinians.
I wasn’t aware it was a competition? Human rights violations should be criticized no matter who’s doing it.
That politicization gap shows that there is zero concern for actual genocide or persecution and instead a desire for (or avoidance for Israel for) political criticism independent of prosperity/facts.
Again… I’m not the American government. I am very critical of the US governments involvement with many genocides throughout history. I am also very critical of any government who participates in similar human rights violations, because I’m not a massive hypocrite.
So… Forcing an entire ethnic group into concentration camps, forced migration, forced assimilation, and depopulation is reasonable? For what, because there were a couple attacks from some extremists?
Hard proof of all of that has never been produced. Contrary facts exist for all your points.
As I said, most of the information used has been verified by independent reporters or human rights organizations.
If you required the same level of “hard proof” as you are dictating for China then most crimes against humanity never happened.
We have video and pictures of concentration camps, we have verified internal documents, we have demographics released to the public by the offending government, we have personal testimony, we have announcements from the government admitting to moderate the birth limits of an extreme minority in the country…
secret papers can’t be hard proof. Neither is a photo of what may be a prison. There are extremely weak documentaries trying to hype up “re-education”, but the US pledge of allegiance would be equivalent indoctrination.
If you required the same level of “hard proof” as you are dictating for China then most crimes against humanity never happened.
at the risk of whataboutism, you have Israel engaged in genocidal mass murder on video. Politics of shit talking China is far more important than any objective principle of oppression.
We have video and pictures of concentration camps, we have verified internal documents, we have demographics released to the public by the offending government, we have personal testimony, we have announcements from the government admitting to moderate the birth limits of an extreme minority in the country…
There is genuine context/exaggeration to all of these points. Demographics and income specifically show Xinxiang doing better than average in China.
According to…? If you read the article the leaks were cross referenced and verified using things like time, date, other communications and even individual signatures.
Internal documents are some of the most sought after forms of evidence when examining crimes against humanity. One of the reasons the Holocaust is beyond doubt is because the Nazi had so many “secret” documents.
the risk of whataboutism, you have Israel engaged in genocidal mass murder on video.
Yes, and one of the reasons why is because foreign journalist have access to the region. One wonders why China have levied so many access restrictions to Xinjiang.
Politics of shit talking China is far more important than any objective principle of oppression.
Sounds like a projection to me. I would say you care more about defending any type of criticism more than oppression that is happening.
There is genuine context/exaggeration to all of these points.
Such as?
Demographics and income specifically show Xinxiang doing better than average in China.
Would you care to extrapolate on this, or should I just take your claims as fact?
The majority of UN countries are on their side, Muslim majority countries included.
And claiming “U.N. body rejects debate on China’s treatment of Uyghur Muslims in blow to West” means a majority of countries on their side is just dishonest. China has a massive economy and is able to put political pressure on plenty of nations in the UN.
This would be like saying America has never pressured another nation into voting for something in the UN.
I think even the countries that abstained are on their side.
They’re obviously being pressured to be on that side but all of the UNSC veto holders do that. The veto power shouldn’t exist because this is what happens. Veto holders are allowed to bully whoever they want with no meaningful consequences.
even the countries that abstained are on their side.
What do you mean by on their side? Are you saying they don’t believe human rights violations happened, are you saying they are just politically aligned with China, or that worried about political backlash from China?
They’re not willing to stand up to an obvious bully and push for further investigation. Closer to your second and third statements than the first. With the third being the most likely.
I do understand how my first comment could be misunderstood now though.
linking wikipedia is providing an enormous list of sources and summaries
at this point, the uighur issue is the bullshit asymmetry principal: it’s been proven time and time again and anyone asking for “sources” isn’t arguing in good faith: they’re relying on the fact that asking for sources takes thousands of times less energy than countering
so that’s what you get: a massive list of pre-prepared sources
*edit: and if you’d have actually read the article you posted, the UNHRC didn’t vote against the motion because they thought there was nothing to investigate: they voted against it to “avoid alienating china”
If China is authoritarian and censors all information that makes China look bad, and spreads propaganda to other countries that those Governments are spreading propaganda to make China look bad and China isn’t actually bad, does it matter what is motivating the US to say “China Bad” when they objectively are?
I would be sympathetic if the Uyghur stuff was true.
This is denial, plain and simple.
It is not everyone else’s job to provide this ignoramus sources on the facts of the matter when we are all communicating on the internet where those facts can be found. Especially when no source can possibly be good enough when “they haven’t seen anything convincing yet” even though everyone but China and their allies are saying the same damn thing, including people who have fled China, and they are only referencing US sources.
I don’t think that being uninformed is denying genocide and I think it’s antisocial, divisive, and not beneficial to any of us to treat it as if it is.
I don’t think deleting the parent comment so context is lost is good practice. I think it is antisocial, divisive, and not beneficial to any one who wants to keep up with the conversation.
But you did it anyways. Like how OP explicitly denied a genocide is happening.
I deleted it before I had any responses because I regretted posting it, and yknow what, I’m allowed to do that.
No, you deleted it after you had responses hence why it got responses. You then edited your other comment with this:
As some people have already pointed out, it’s far more useful to pont out why there is not much information available.
To somebody seeing this from the outside and not being aware of the issue, I learned a lot from some of the comments in this thread, but I learned absolutely fucking nothing from that comment linking the wiki page for genocide denial. This is why I don’t fucking like that response. Sure that guy may be sealioning and acting in bad faith, but the comment is public and is for everyone seeing it just as much as it’s for the person it’s responding to.
After I replied.
It is obvious what you are doing and now that I pointed it out for others coming by I have no need to interact with you further.
Why would organisations who aren’t scared to criticise the west and have a really good track record like anmety intl and HRW make the suffering of the Uyghur people up?
It’s really fucking hard for me to understand why many people have so much trouble accepting both China/Russia and the West are heavily unethical. There’s no magic place that does everything ethically, and I don’t know why we’re refusing to acknowledge the cultural genocide of a large population, leading to extreme suffering for hunderds of thousands, because it criticises one country. It doesn’t matter who did it, it absolutely is awful, and we shouldn’t be denying it. Denying it only compounds the extreme suffering the population faces.
It’s so weird to me that people who defend China’s treatment of Uyghurs turn it into a US vs China thing. You can look through my recent history and find me saying that Biden, Harris, and everyone in Congress who clapped for Netanyahu have committed genocide and can rot in hell. Trump, of course, is even worse. This isn’t a “muh both sides bad enlightened centrism” thing because this isn’t a “sides” issue to begin with. Three of the four major superpowers on Earth right now are authoritarian hellholes, and the EU is on its way to joining them with its shift toward neo-Nazism.
Yes. It is absolutely shameful propaganda to the most humanist response to terrorism in history: Education and job creation. Very significant prosperity in region. The political designation of genocide is based on some unwed mothers with 4+ children going to UK to say they were now sterile, FFS. The anti-China hateful have no metrics to stop hating China. Only propaganda amplification.
It is absolutely shameful propaganda to the most humanist response to terrorism in history: Education and job creation. Very significant prosperity in region.
America said the same thing when they forced assimilation on the native population after stealing their land.
The political designation of genocide is based on some unwed mothers with 4+ children going to UK to say they were now sterile, FFS.
Again, your only defense to actual evidence is just logical fallacy. You aren’t making any argument in good faith.
The anti-China hateful have no metrics to stop hating China. Only propaganda amplification.
I actually admire a lot about the Chinese government, they’ve done wonders in recent decades to undue nearly a hundred years of foreign interference and imperialism. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to be critical of the things I don’t like about the government.
The simple fact is that they have a fairly well documented history of oppressing non-Han minorities in the country.
I would be sympathetic if the Uyghur stuff was true.
Do you have any substantial sources, to objectively prove your claims? I’ve never seen anything convincing.
I’m not intending to simp for China. They are authoritarian. But I’m also not going to fall for propaganda especially if it’s false. The USA has a motive for making the masses hate China.
There is plenty of evidence widely available from organizations like human rights watch and amnesty international. Claims that deny any evidence exist of the persecution of China’s Muslim population rely on logical fallacies to attempt to obscure the validity of the body of evidence. Namely ad hominem attacks against the individual who first gathered the evidence to begin with.
While the researcher obviously has biased opinions about the CCP, that doesn’t affect the validity of the evidence gathered, most of which comes directly from publicly available information released by the CCP itself, or from leaked internal communication from party members that have been widely verified by reputable journalists and organizations specializing in human rights violations.
While I personally wouldn’t claim that there is a genocide as we traditionally understand it has occurred, it’s hard to deny that the Uyghur people aren’t being systemically oppressed or that significant human rights violations haven’t occurred.
Simply looking at publicly available census data releases by the CCP we can tell that Uyghur people are being driven from culturally important sites that are being replaced by ethnically Han Chinese, and that Uyghur populations have been shrinking at a worryingly abnormal rate.
If we look at recent history of ethnic conflict within China in tibet, Manchuria, and inner Mongolia, I fail to see why it’s logical to assume that the accusations of crimes against humanity is pure propaganda.
Han chauvinism is well documented, and even Mao Zedong spoke about how it would negatively affect the future of the party. Ethnic conflict/cleansing has been a constant in the region and is part of the foundational history of modern China.
It is politicization to be overly critical of China over what is a reasonable solution to peace and prosperity in the region, while the west contributes to 1000x worse treatment of Palestinians. That politicization gap shows that there is zero concern for actual genocide or persecution and instead a desire for (or avoidance for Israel for) political criticism independent of prosperity/facts.
So… Forcing an entire ethnic group into concentration camps, forced migration, forced assimilation, and depopulation is reasonable? For what, because there were a couple attacks from some extremists?
I wasn’t aware it was a competition? Human rights violations should be criticized no matter who’s doing it.
Again… I’m not the American government. I am very critical of the US governments involvement with many genocides throughout history. I am also very critical of any government who participates in similar human rights violations, because I’m not a massive hypocrite.
Hard proof of all of that has never been produced. Contrary facts exist for all your points.
What do you consider hard proof?
As I said, most of the information used has been verified by independent reporters or human rights organizations.
If you required the same level of “hard proof” as you are dictating for China then most crimes against humanity never happened.
We have video and pictures of concentration camps, we have verified internal documents, we have demographics released to the public by the offending government, we have personal testimony, we have announcements from the government admitting to moderate the birth limits of an extreme minority in the country…
What else could you possibly want?
secret papers can’t be hard proof. Neither is a photo of what may be a prison. There are extremely weak documentaries trying to hype up “re-education”, but the US pledge of allegiance would be equivalent indoctrination.
at the risk of whataboutism, you have Israel engaged in genocidal mass murder on video. Politics of shit talking China is far more important than any objective principle of oppression.
There is genuine context/exaggeration to all of these points. Demographics and income specifically show Xinxiang doing better than average in China.
According to…? If you read the article the leaks were cross referenced and verified using things like time, date, other communications and even individual signatures.
Internal documents are some of the most sought after forms of evidence when examining crimes against humanity. One of the reasons the Holocaust is beyond doubt is because the Nazi had so many “secret” documents.
Yes, and one of the reasons why is because foreign journalist have access to the region. One wonders why China have levied so many access restrictions to Xinjiang.
Sounds like a projection to me. I would say you care more about defending any type of criticism more than oppression that is happening.
Such as?
Would you care to extrapolate on this, or should I just take your claims as fact?
population growth (2010-2020) 4th highest province: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_administrative_divisions_by_population#/media/File:Annual_population_growth_rate_by_Chinese_province.svg
Xinxiang has had autonomous long term exemptions to one child policy.
gdp growth 2024, 2nd highest: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1179690/china-gross-domestic-product-gdp-growth-by-region-province/#%3A~%3Atext=GDP+growth+in+China+2024%2C+by+region&text=In+2024%2C+the+annual+real%2Cat+5.0+percent+in+2024.
longer term growth, shows the region outperforming China average, with higher outperformance in recent years. https://www.statista.com/statistics/804093/china-gdp-annual-growth-of-xinjiang-province/
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Oh boy, genocide denial.
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And claiming “U.N. body rejects debate on China’s treatment of Uyghur Muslims in blow to West” means a majority of countries on their side is just dishonest. China has a massive economy and is able to put political pressure on plenty of nations in the UN.
This would be like saying America has never pressured another nation into voting for something in the UN.
I think even the countries that abstained are on their side.
They’re obviously being pressured to be on that side but all of the UNSC veto holders do that. The veto power shouldn’t exist because this is what happens. Veto holders are allowed to bully whoever they want with no meaningful consequences.
What do you mean by on their side? Are you saying they don’t believe human rights violations happened, are you saying they are just politically aligned with China, or that worried about political backlash from China?
They’re not willing to stand up to an obvious bully and push for further investigation. Closer to your second and third statements than the first. With the third being the most likely.
I do understand how my first comment could be misunderstood now though.
linking wikipedia is providing an enormous list of sources and summaries
at this point, the uighur issue is the bullshit asymmetry principal: it’s been proven time and time again and anyone asking for “sources” isn’t arguing in good faith: they’re relying on the fact that asking for sources takes thousands of times less energy than countering
so that’s what you get: a massive list of pre-prepared sources
*edit: and if you’d have actually read the article you posted, the UNHRC didn’t vote against the motion because they thought there was nothing to investigate: they voted against it to “avoid alienating china”
deleted by creator
What they were doing was textbook sealioning. This information is right there for anyone to find and has been for years.
deleted by creator
If China is authoritarian and censors all information that makes China look bad, and spreads propaganda to other countries that those Governments are spreading propaganda to make China look bad and China isn’t actually bad, does it matter what is motivating the US to say “China Bad” when they objectively are?
This is denial, plain and simple.
It is not everyone else’s job to provide this ignoramus sources on the facts of the matter when we are all communicating on the internet where those facts can be found. Especially when no source can possibly be good enough when “they haven’t seen anything convincing yet” even though everyone but China and their allies are saying the same damn thing, including people who have fled China, and they are only referencing US sources.
Let’s use some simple logic here, bub.
deleted by creator
I don’t think deleting the parent comment so context is lost is good practice. I think it is antisocial, divisive, and not beneficial to any one who wants to keep up with the conversation.
But you did it anyways. Like how OP explicitly denied a genocide is happening.
Both things happened, and that’s a fact.
deleted by creator
No, you deleted it after you had responses hence why it got responses. You then edited your other comment with this:
After I replied.
It is obvious what you are doing and now that I pointed it out for others coming by I have no need to interact with you further.
deleted by creator
Why would organisations who aren’t scared to criticise the west and have a really good track record like anmety intl and HRW make the suffering of the Uyghur people up?
It’s really fucking hard for me to understand why many people have so much trouble accepting both China/Russia and the West are heavily unethical. There’s no magic place that does everything ethically, and I don’t know why we’re refusing to acknowledge the cultural genocide of a large population, leading to extreme suffering for hunderds of thousands, because it criticises one country. It doesn’t matter who did it, it absolutely is awful, and we shouldn’t be denying it. Denying it only compounds the extreme suffering the population faces.
It’s so weird to me that people who defend China’s treatment of Uyghurs turn it into a US vs China thing. You can look through my recent history and find me saying that Biden, Harris, and everyone in Congress who clapped for Netanyahu have committed genocide and can rot in hell. Trump, of course, is even worse. This isn’t a “muh both sides bad enlightened centrism” thing because this isn’t a “sides” issue to begin with. Three of the four major superpowers on Earth right now are authoritarian hellholes, and the EU is on its way to joining them with its shift toward neo-Nazism.
Oh I think you registered on the wrong instance
Hexbear is what you’re looking for, this way most of us won’t see your comments.
Yes. It is absolutely shameful propaganda to the most humanist response to terrorism in history: Education and job creation. Very significant prosperity in region. The political designation of genocide is based on some unwed mothers with 4+ children going to UK to say they were now sterile, FFS. The anti-China hateful have no metrics to stop hating China. Only propaganda amplification.
America said the same thing when they forced assimilation on the native population after stealing their land.
Or just demographics?
Again, your only defense to actual evidence is just logical fallacy. You aren’t making any argument in good faith.
I actually admire a lot about the Chinese government, they’ve done wonders in recent decades to undue nearly a hundred years of foreign interference and imperialism. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to be critical of the things I don’t like about the government.
The simple fact is that they have a fairly well documented history of oppressing non-Han minorities in the country.