Article: https://proton.me/blog/deepseek
Calls it “Deepsneak”, failing to make it clear that the reason people love Deepseek is that you can download and it run it securely on any of your own private devices or servers - unlike most of the competing SOTA AIs.
I can’t speak for Proton, but the last couple weeks are showing some very clear biases coming out.
People got flack for saying Proton is the CIA, Proton is NSA, Proton is a joint five-eyes country intelligence operation despite the convenient timing of their formation and lots of other things.
Maybe they’re not, maybe their CEO is just acting this way.
But consider for a moment if they were. IF they were then all of this would make more sense. The CIA/NSA/etc have a vested interest in discrediting and attacking Chinese technology they have no ability to spy or gather data through. The CIA/NSA could also for example see a point to throwing in publicly with Trump as part of a larger agreed upon push with the tech companies towards reactionary politics, towards what many call fascism or fascism-ish.
My mind is not made up. It’s kind of unknowable. I think they’re suspicious enough to be wary of trusting them but there’s no smoking gun, yet there wasn’t a smoking gun that CryptoAG was a CIA cut-out until some unauthorized leaks nearly a half century after they gained control and use of it. We know they have an interest in subverting encryption, in going fishing among “interesting” targets who might seek to use privacy-conscious services and among dissidents outside the west they may wish to vet and recruit.
True privacy advocates should not be throwing in with the agenda of any regime or bloc, especially those who so trample human and privacy rights as that of the US and co. They should be roundly suspicious of all power.
How is this Open Source? The official repository https://github.com/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-R1 contains images only, a PDF file, and links to download the model. I don’t see any code. What exactly is Open Source here? And if so, where to get the source code?
In deep learning generally open source doesn’t include actual training or inference code. Rather it means they publish the model weights and parameters (necessary to run it locally/on your own hardware) and publish academic papers explaining how the model was trained. I’m sure Stallman disagrees but from the standpoint of deep learning research DeepSeek definitely qualifies as an “open source model”
Just because they call it Open Source does not make it. DeepSeek is not Open Source, it only provides model weights and parameters, not any source code and training data. I still don’t know whats in the model and we only get “binary” data, not any source code. This is not Libre software.
There is a nice (even if by now already a bit outdated) analysis about the openness of different “open source” generative AI projects in the following article: Liesenfeld, Andreas, and Mark Dingemanse. “Rethinking open source generative AI: open washing and the EU AI Act.” The 2024 ACM Conference on Fairness, Accountability, and Transparency. 2024.
So “Open Source” to AI is just releasing a .psd file used to export a jpeg, and you need some other proprietary software like Photoshop in order to use it.
Open-Source in AI usually posted to HuggingFace instead of GitHub: https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-R1
How apt, just yesterday I put together an evidenced summary of the CEOs recent absurd comments. Why are Proton so keen to throw away so much good will people had invested in them?!
This is what the CEO posting as u/Proton_Team stated in a response on r/ProtonMail:
Here is our official response, also available on the Mastodon post in the screenshot:
Corporate capture of Dems is real. In 2022, we campaigned extensively in the US for anti-trust legislation.
Two bills were ready, with bipartisan support. Chuck Schumer (who coincidently has two daughters working as big tech lobbyists) refused to bring the bills for a vote.
At a 2024 event covering antitrust remedies, out of all the invited senators, just a single one showed up - JD Vance.
By working on the front lines of many policy issues, we have seen the shift between Dems and Republicans over the past decade first hand.
Dems had a choice between the progressive wing (Bernie Sanders, etc), versus corporate Dems, but in the end money won and constituents lost.
Until corporate Dems are thrown out, the reality is that Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses.
Source: https://archive.ph/quYyb
To call out the important bits:
- He refers to it as the “official response”
- Indicates that JD Vance is on their side just because he attended an event that other invited senators didn’t
- Rattles on about “corporate Dems” with incredible bias
- States “Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses” which is immediately refuted by every response
That was posted in ther/ProtonMail sub where the majority of the event took place: https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i1zjgn/so_that_happened/m7ahrlm/
However be aware that the CEO posting as u/Proton_Team kept editing his comments so I wouldn’t trust the current state of it. Plus the proton team/subreddit mods deleted a ton of discussion they didn’t like. Therefore this archive link captured the day after might show more but not all: https://web.archive.org/web/20250116060727/https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i1zjgn/so_that_happened/m7ahrlm/
Some statements were made on Mastodon but these are subsequently deleted, but they’re capture by an archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20250115165213/https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503
I learned about it from an r/privacy thread but true to their reputation the mods there also went on a deletion spree and removed the entire post: https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1i210jg/protonmail_supporting_the_party_that_killed/
This archive link might show more but I’ve not checked: https://web.archive.org/web/20250115193443/https://old.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1i210jg/protonmail_supporting_the_party_that_killed/
There’s also this lemmy discussion from the day after but by that point the Proton team had fully kicked in their censorship so I don’t know how much people were aware of (apologies I don’t know how to make a generic lemmy link) https://feddit.uk/post/22741653
OpenAI, Google, and Meta, for example, can push back against most excessive government demands.
Sure they “can” but do they?
Why do that when you can just score a deal with the government to give them whatever information they want for sweet perks like foreign competitors getting banned?
Pretty rich coming from Proton, who shoved a LLM into their mail client mere months ago.
wait, what? How did I miss that? I use protonmail, and I didn’t see anything about an LLM in the mail client. Nor have I noticed it when I check my mail. Where/how do I find and disable that shit?
Thank you. I’ve saved the link and will be disabling it next time I log in. Can’t fucking escape this AI/LLM bullshit anywhere.
The combination of AI, crypto wallet and CEO’s pro-MAGA comments (all within six months or so!) are why I quit Proton. They’ve completely lost the plot. I just want a reliable email service and file storage.
Once all that crap came out, I felt incredibly justified by never having switched to Proton.
It was entirely out of laziness, but still
I’m considering leaving proton too. The two things I really care about are simplelogin and the VPN with port forwarding. As far as I understand it, proton is about the last VPN option you can trust with port forwarding
Happily using AirVPN for port forwarding.
I’m strongly considering switching to them! How do you like it?
As far as I understand it, proton is about the last VPN option you can trust with port forwarding
Could you explain this part please? What makes them untrustworthy?
I’m not 100% sure if you mean what do I think makes proton untrustworthy, or what do I think makes other vpns untrustworthy?
If you’re referring to proton, some of the statements Andy Yen have made recently are painting proton as less neutral than they claim to be.
I’m also generally aware that a LOT of vpn outfits are just a different company mining your traffic and data, and that there are few “no log” vpns that you can trust.
Despite their recent statements that sour my taste in giving proton money (and the ai bullshit that every goddam company is shoving down our throats), I trust proton when they say no logs. They’re regularly audited for it.
I don’t trust all these other VPN companies that claim to be no log and have nothing to back them up. Especially when several of them have been caught logging and mining/selling the data they claim to not be logging.
DeepSeek is open source, meaning you can modify code(new window) on your own app to create an independent — and more secure — version. This has led some to hope that a more privacy-friendly version of DeepSeek could be developed. However, using DeepSeek in its current form — as it exists today, hosted in China — comes with serious risks for anyone concerned about their most sensitive, private information.
Any model trained or operated on DeepSeek’s servers is still subject to Chinese data laws, meaning that the Chinese government can demand access at any time.
What??? Whoever wrote this sounds like he has 0 understanding of how it works. There is no “more privacy-friendly version” that could be developed, the models are already out and you can run the entire model 100% locally. That’s as privacy-friendly as it gets.
“Any model trained or operated on DeepSeek’s servers are still subject to Chinese data laws”
Operated, yes. Trained, no. The model is MIT licensed, China has nothing on you when you run it yourself. I expect better from a company whose whole business is on privacy.
To be fair, most people can’t actually self-host Deepseek, but there already are other providers offering API access to it.
There are plenty of step-by-step guides to run Deepseek locally. Hell, someone even had it running on a Raspberry Pi. It seems to be much more efficient than other current alternatives.
That’s about as openly available to self host as you can get without a 1-button installer.
You can run an imitation of the DeepSeek R1 model, but not the actual one unless you literally buy a dozen of whatever NVIDIA’s top GPU is at the moment.
I saw posts about people running it well enough for testing purposes on an NVMe.
A server grade CPU with a lot of RAM and memory bandwidth would work reasonable well, and cost “only” ~$10k rather than 100k+…
Those are not deepseek R1. They are unrelated models like llama3 from Meta or Qwen from Alibaba “distilled” by deepseek.
This is a common method to smarten a smaller model from a larger one.
Ollama should have never labelled them deepseek:8B/32B. Way too many people misunderstood that.
The 1.5B/7B/8B/13B/32B/70B models are all officially DeepSeek R1 models, that is what DeepSeek themselves refer to those models as. It is DeepSeek themselves who produced those models and released them to the public and gave them their names. And their names are correct, it is just factually false to say they are not DeepSeek R1 models. They are.
The “R1” in the name means “reasoning version one” because it does not just spit out an answer but reasons through it with an internal monologue. For example, here is a simple query I asked DeepSeek R1 13B:
Me: can all the planets in the solar system fit between the earth and the moon?
DeepSeek: Yes, all eight planets could theoretically be lined up along the line connecting Earth and the Moon without overlapping. The combined length of their diameters (approximately 379,011 km) is slightly less than the average Earth-Moon distance (about 384,400 km), allowing them to fit if placed consecutively with no required spacing.
However, on top of its answer, I can expand an option to see its internal monologue it went through before generating the answer, which you can find the internal monologue here because it’s too long to paste.
What makes these consumer-oriented models different is that that rather than being trained on raw data, they are trained on synthetic data from pre-existing models. That’s what the “Qwen” or “Llama” parts mean in the name. The 7B model is trained on synthetic data produced by Qwen, so it is effectively a compressed version of Qen. However, neither Qwen nor Llama can “reason,” they do not have an internal monologue.
This is why it is just incorrect to claim that something like DeepSeek R1 7B Qwen Distill has no relevance to DeepSeek R1 but is just a Qwen model. If it’s supposedly a Qwen model, why is it that it can do something that Qwen cannot do but only DeepSeek R1 can? It’s because, again, it is a DeepSeek R1 model, they add the R1 reasoning to it during the distillation process as part of its training. (I think they use the original R1 to produce the data related to the internal monologue which it is learns to copy.)
I’m running deepseek-r1:14b-qwen-distill-fp16 locally and it produces really good results I find. Like yeah it’s a reduced version of the online one, but it’s still far better than anything else I’ve tried running locally.
Its so cute when chinese is sprinkled in randomly hehe my little bilingual robot in my pc
What??? Whoever wrote this sounds like he has 0 understanding of how it works. There is no “more privacy-friendly version” that could be developed, the models are already out and you can run the entire model 100% locally. That’s as privacy-friendly as it gets.
Unfortunately it is you who have 0 understanding of it. Read my comment below. Tldr: good luck to have the hardware
Obviously you need lots of GPUs to run large deep learning models. I don’t see how that’s a fault of the developers and researchers, it’s just a fact of this technology.
I understand it well. It’s still relevant to mention that you can run the distilled models on consumer hardware if you really care about privacy. 8GB+ VRAM isn’t crazy, especially if you have a ton of unified memory on macbooks or some Windows laptops releasing this year that have 64+GB unified memory. There are also websites re-hosting various versions of Deepseek like Huggingface hosting the 32B model which is good enough for most people.
Instead, the article is written like there is literally no way to use Deepseek privately, which is literally wrong.
So I’ve been interested in running one locally but honestly I’m pretty confused what model I should be using. I have a laptop with a 3070 mobile in it. What model should I be going after?
Is it Open Source? I cannot find the source code. The official repository https://github.com/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-R1 only contains images, a PDF file, and links to download the model. But I don’t see any code. What exactly is Open Source here?
I don’t see the source either. Fair cop.
Thanks for confirmation. I made a top level comment too, because this important information gets lost in the comment hierarchy here.
There are already other providers like Deepinfra offering DeepSeek. So while the the average person (like me) couldn’t run it themselves, they do have alternative options.
Down votes be damned, you are right to call out the parent they clearly dont articulate their point in a way that confirms they actually understand what is going on and how an open source model can still have privacy implications if the masses use the company’s hosted version.
It’s simple:
bad.🤣
Well you just made me choke on my laughter. Well done, well done.
To be fair its correct but it’s poor writing to skip the self hosted component. These articles target the company not the model.
There are many llms you can use offline
Including DeepSeek: https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai
Deepseek works reasonably well, even at cpu only in ollama. I ran the 7b and 1.5b models and it wasn’t awful. 7b slowed down as the convo went on, but the 1.5b model felt pretty passable while I was playing with it
Proton have been too noisy from the very start .
It might be that they’re equating the name with the app and company, not the open source model, based on one of the first lines:
AI chat apps like ChatGPT collect user data, filter responses, and make content moderation decisions that are not always transparent.
Emphasis mine. The rest of the article reads the same way.
Most people aren’t privacy-conscious enough to care who gets what data and who’s building the binaries and web apps, so sounding the alarm is appropriate for people who barely know the difference between AI and AGI.
I get that people are mad at Proton right now (anyone have a link? I’m behind on the recent stuff), but we should ensure we get mad at things that are real, not invent imaginary ones based on contrived contexts.
Most people aren’t privacy-conscious enough to care who gets what data
I assume most people who pay for proton don’t fall into this category
Perhaps, and if they do indeed care and read that blog, maybe they’ll share it with friends who don’t have a clue.
Yeah it’s a fair call, but to me it is the very context of why people are made at Proton that makes me suspicious of articles like this.
I can’t find the original summary post someone made, but here’s the last response from Proton CEO. Read the comments as well to get a good summary: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i2nz9v/on_politics_and_proton_a_message_from_andy/
TL;DR: Proton used their official accounts to share CEO’s pro-US-Republican thoughts as their official stance. They since apologized and said they would use personal account to share those thoughts. But (IMO) now having posted this blog on the actual Proton website, it says to me that there are some serious bias alignment issues with a company that is supposed to be a safe-haven away from all of that.
Here is a general write up about the CEO showing their maga colors.
More happened in the reddit thread though that added some more elements, like the ceo opting for a new user name with “88” in it (a common right wing reference), his unprompted use of the phrase “didnt mean to trigger you,” him evasively refusing to clarify what his stance actually was because “that would be more politics,” on and on. You can read through that thread here, although proton corporate are mods, so i have no idea what they may have deleted at this point.
The thread was full of “mask on” behavior that is pretty transparent to anyone experienced with the alt right on the internet.
Thank you so much! That was way beyond what I could have hoped.
I’ll read the link you provided in a bit, but that does sound really bad. Must suck to work at a company you think is helping people stay private only to have the CEO come out as pro-fascism.
No problem mate. The thread is a mess, but if you read the comments below the top pinned one, you’ll see most of the salient points that pissed people off. The “color” i mentioned above came from all over that thread, with some of it deleted. I know he edited/deleted the “triggered” comment when he was called out, but he never expanded on why he claimed the GOP was the “party of the little guy” and why all the “corporate dems needed to be thrown out” to get anything done. He also opted not to respond at all to people asking why he thought the party of tech billionaires was suddenly going to crack down on tech billionaires besides saying he really liked J.D Vance, a tech millionaire whose political run was funded by, get this, tech billionaire Peter theil.
Dude fawned very publicly over tech billionaire maga, who will do clearly do nothing for privacy and monopoly busting, while pretending that the real issue is chuck shumers and establishment dems.
The bias is clear and prominent.
I wasn’t a customer of theirs (I’m always skeptical of super-popular-anything), but I think I’ll look elsewhere for secure email.
Not because of this article, which I think makes some decent points, but because I would worry in the back of my mind that the Officers of the company would happily bow to their demigods and start secretly tracking people as a show of fealty.
it is certainly that. but recently its become very trendy to hate Proton, so its just easier to do that instead of thinking. I’m really disappointed in this community
im not an expert at criticism, but I think its fair from their part.
I mean, can you remind me what are the hardware requirements to run deepseek locally?
oh, you need a high-end graphics card with at least 8 GB VRAM for that*? for the highly distilled variants! for more complete ones you need multiple such graphics card interconnected! how do you even do that with more than 2 cards on a consumer motherboard??how many do you think have access to such a system, I mean even 1 high-end gpu with just 8 GB VRAM, considering that more and more people only have a smartphone nowadays, but also that these are very expensive even for gamers?
and as you will read in the 2nd referenced article below, memory size is not the only factor: the distill requiring only 1 GB VRAM still requires a high-end gpu for the model to be usable.so my point is that when talking about deepseek, you can’t ignore how they operate their online service, as most people will only be able to try that.
I understand that recently it’s very trendy, and cool to shit on Proton, but they have a very strong point here.
The 1.5B version that can be run basically on anything. My friend runs it in his shitty laptop with 512MB iGPU and 8GB of RAM (inference takes 30 seconds)
You don’t even need a GPU with good VRAM, as you can offload it to RAM (slower inference, though)
I’ve run the 14B version on my AMD 6700XT GPU and it only takes ~9GB of VRAM (inference over 1k tokens takes 20 seconds). The 8B version takes around 5-6GB of VRAM (inference over 1k tokens takes 5 seconds)
The numbers in your second link are waaaaaay off.
Just because the average consumer doesn’t have the hardware to use it in a private manner does not mean it’s not achievable. The article straight up pretends self hosting doesn’t exist.
