Summary
Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich endorsed President-elect Donald Trumpās victory, stating itās ātimeā to extend full Israeli sovereignty over the occupied West Bank.
This comes as Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu highlighted his alignment with Trump on the āIranian threat.ā
Tensions in Gaza and Lebanon have escalated following recent Israeli airstrikes, with regional leaders gathering in Riyadh to address Israeli actions.
Israeli President Isaac Herzog is set to meet President Biden, though Bidenās influence on Israel may be limited following Trumpās win.
Tankies who didnāt vote for Harris: We did it! We saved Palestine!
Trump got more votes than every other party combined.
Cool story
Perhaps the tankies should have voted for her multiple times
And thatās why I didnāt feel like I was betraying Palestine by voting for Harris
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This comment was deleted, but the fact that the user āfuckisraelā is the one who made it is deeply funny to me. Guess that one wasnāt a Russian spy after all. I donāt think theyād be active at this point otherwise.
The liberals never believed that accusation themselves; it was just a way to neg leftists into voting for Harris.
Oh wow, itās a mind reader.
itās
Case in point
Yeah āitā because fascist arenāt people. Theyāre dangerous destructive things that shouldnāt be tolerated.
Genocide denial is fascist.
To those cowards that didnāt vote: This is on you, own it you sniveling weasels.
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Fuck you. Reevaluate your values and if you care so much, you go to the middle east and fight. Otherwise stop virtue signalling.
Absolutely why should death and destruction be only there. Let also the exporter get a taste of their own product.
The democrats can not fail, they can only be failed.
own the cowardice. Dems suck but every non voter has blood on their hands. Ignorance and apathy are not moral principles.
I voted, but I have no power to change the outcome of the election. Only the democrats had this power, the blame lies only with them.
Genocide lowers turnout. Saying youāre going to appoint republicans to your cabinet lowers turnout. Pledging to shut down the border and build the wall lowers turnout. Means testing all of your campaign promises lowers turnout. Running tough-on-crime campaign ads raises turnout FOR THE REPUBLICANS!
Weāve been yelling that the dems will lose if they continue to go right for the last 4 years, but the dems either chose to move to the right on every issue either knowing it would lower their performance, or ignorant because blue maga like you helped shield them from the reality unfolding infront of all of us. I donāt know which is more damning.
I agree the campaign was poor. I agree the party had small, terrible, and stupid ideas. I agree that chasing republicans is stupid.
I will still however yell at cowards who coddle people who think not voting is anything but moral cowardice. Just own it. Take some fucking accountability. Its fine to have issues and complaints, its suicide to encourage people to go full karen.
Blaming the people for the predictable effects of the demās actions deflects away from only entity that had the power to change the outcome and the only entity that will have the power to change this in 2026.
Itās not constructive to go āDamn, I sure wish genocide didnāt decrease turnout for the demsā
Just like in 2016, the dems deluded themselves into blaming the voters (specifically black people and/or the left) and bernie sanders instead of themselves, and we are watching them do it again in real time.
I would argue democrat donors preferred a trump win and preferred dem turnout be low because they had a decent campaign for a second and shut it down.
What your saying only makes sense if you operate from the idea dems want to win and not that they want to hand a victory their donors.
In 2016 actual democrat operative tried to twistpeopleās arms to vote. This election that energy did not come from the mainstream democrats. Their pitch was āwe donāt need you, we want republicans insteadā.
The calculus is different when you recognize both parties hate you.
Genocide lowers turnout.
Which is exactly why Netanyahu made sure not to slow it down. Because low turnout=Republican win. And he knows which candidate will allow him to literally wipe Palestine off the map
Biden sent Netanyahu every weapon he was allowed to, and had the military protecting Israel.
If the Biden admin didnāt want Netanyahu to do this, they could have just not actively supported his efforts to do so.
This was obvious to everyone from the beginning.
Even blue MAGA were doing āBut you still need to vote biden, even if the dems never stop facilitating genocideā since Oct 8th, because deep down, they understood the dems wouldnāt listen, even if it was going to cost them the election.
And notice how all the screeching about genocide has gone silent? Proves that they never actually cared.
i hope all those lefties that refused to vote feel really accomplished now.
congrats, guys! you did it!
you installed a fascist dictator!
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Anyone who abstained on grounds of Harrisās position on Gaza in my view have blood on their hands in what will not only assuredly he worse for Palestinians under Trump, but also the ongoing attempted genocide in Ukraine by Putin.
They may as well be Trump voters to me and I want nothing to do with them.
Most of the people spreading that bullshit here were .ml tankies and probably wanted trump elected anyway.
wellā¦ it fuckin worked
Gaza wasnāt even on the list of what people were thinking about on election day. Lemmy is so insignificant in the scheme of things.
Worse than Trump voters actually. The vast majority of Trump voters have convinced themselves that what theyāre doing is good, actually, and that the democrats are evil whereas the people who abstained from voting for Harris literally had a choice of a candidate that campaigned on making their number one issue worse, and one that at least attempted to talk about peace deals and decided to just have no impact whatsoever, condemning hundreds of thousands plus to certain death. They claim to be on the side of ending human suffering when in actuality, theyāre little piss babies that are upset that their 10% of the population doesnāt have complete and total control.
Who could have predicted this???
Every UN country except Israel & the US.
No they knew too, just were ok with it.
Me š§
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LeopardsAteMyFace.
Unfortunately, this time around, for the Americans pretending to actually give damn on social meda, Gaza will be a parking lot soon.
Just as Trump proclaimed.
People are just getting the consequences of their actions or inaction. My empathy bucket for all of this has broken and I donāt plan on fixing it anymore either.
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Gaza is a parking lot already.
All Trump will do is officially move the border line. The full ethnic cleansing of North Gaza is taking place under Biden this very moment.
I think you missed the part where Netanyahu just went out and said the west bank is next.
Theyāve been saying that for the last year. And bombing the west bank. Hell they bombed Bethlehem on Christmas.
I remember commenting a couple months back on one of those āArab-Americans not voting for Harrisā posts, something along the lines of āitās your vote, but I think that youāre going to find that youād rather have Harris than Trumpā and listing some past policy moves like the embassy in Jerusalem, and then someone downvoting and responding something along the lines of āidentical candidatesā.
Iāll bet you anything that that user hasnāt posted anything in almost a week. Just a hunch.
Iāve absolutely still seen people making those arguments. Itās fuckinā wild.
Do you guys think lemmy is a valuable enough target to deploy bot propaganda accounts? Iām not sure I think so.
Like facebook, twitter, and reddit, where there is a concerted effort, that has people working on how to specifically target the people on each one, and understand the differences in their use, and users? No, of course not. Are there bots spreading national, and corporate, propaganda on lemmy? Yes. They are literally everywhere you can make posts. I am willing to bet there are tiny fora out there, with like 10 users, that occasionally sees bot spam.
I dunno man. I think itās much more likely we are seeing the product of the bots. You canāt expect every single site with comments to have propaganda bots. It takes a much smaller number of bots of bots to affect a much larger number of people. Someone has to program and deploy bots to places, the bots canāt just show up anywhere and everywhere there is political conversation
You can totally make programs to scrape the internet for places that have posting functionality, crawl the scraped sites, and auto post. These already exist, and you can buy them, or get them shared to you from various sources. Most of these sites use template software to run their sites. It is not nearly as difficult as people might think to accomplish this. Bot traffic is 50% of internet traffic.
Is there a group somewhere, sitting in a government facility, working on how to best infiltrate Lemmy? I really doubt it. Do these places have general function bots that make it on to lemmy, and even smaller places? Yes. In fact, bots are causing a growing number of small sites to experience what is, essentially, DOS attacks, because of how much traffic suddenly hits the site once the scrapers/auto account makers/etc. have found it.
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If you bring it up to them now they get PISSED
So Arab Americans will come crawling back after the Trump administration
And I think you will find that there has been no material difference in what āIsraelā is actually doing. Theyāve been ramping up occupation and violence in the West Bank for months, going in exactly this direction already. They murdered an American activist in the West Bank as part of this and swept it under the rug using the pretense of an āinvestigationā, remember? The West Bank is already occupied, it is already split into isolated districts, travel is already highly restricted, there are racist curfews for those who must commute to work in Israel, forced through several checkpoints and fearing jail for any delays, giving themselves 3 hour buffers for travel tine, and their government is compradors that work with the IOF to arrest and jail them and out down resistance movements.
The main difference between Dems and GOP on Israel is that Dems feign empathy and concern while Republicans are openly racist. But materially the outcomes are actually very similar, with Dems often being worse because they can more effectively count on your lack of dissent and in coordinating with Europe.
You might remember that there has been a US-backed genocide in Gaza for over a year, under a Dem, and they were willing to lose the election rather than stop supporting genocide.
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I remember a couple months back when Kamala Harris swapped in for Joe Biden and her popularity peaked through the fucking roof when people thought she was going to stop the genocide.
Then Kamala said she was going to continue the genocide and kicked Palestinians out of the DNC.
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Lol. Imagine making a reductive statement to a vastly complicated topic to try and sound smart only to reveal how little you understand. On the internet no less!
Theyāre emotional but theyāre also correct. Israel controls the West Bank in all but name already.
people donāt even bother checking what israel has been for the last year and then make statement ādemocrat would be betterā. Israel with AIPAC own the US. They democrats government couldnāt even say ceasefire nor did Canada, France, or Germany. Democrat and Republic has different approach to China and Russia and maybe Iran, but Palestinian ? there is no way democrat would stop anything.
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āComplicated topicā
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My heart is broken for Palistine. While people were giving support day after day others were undermining them, lending support to a genocide.
bUt hArRiS sUpPoRtS gEnOcIdE
Both can be true, that she supports genocide but that Trump will be worse.
I really hated all the moaning about people calling out that both are shitty options. The Overton window is so far to the right. Like, yeah Harris is clearly the better option but neither represent any positive moves forward.
For Palestine? Probably. In so many other options? Itās laughable that people think that the two candidates were in any way similar.
Biden, and by extension Harris, have not waved their hands and saved the country (even if they could, which they canāt, because we elected politicians not magicians), but they have done leagues more for people than anything the Trump crowd has.
Being ignorant of that is dangerous, but spreading that ignorance is borderline manslaughter for all the people who are going to be hurt because millions of people decided not to show up for this election that did for the last.
Oh both can be true, but in this case they are not.
There has always been valid reason to give arms to Israel, and there continues to be today. If you think that alone amounts to āsupporting genocideā youāre about to be pretty upset when you watch the actual genocide that unfolds in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank over the next 4-8 years. Trump and Netanyahu are about to go scorched earth on Palestine like never in the history of the ~80 year war.
Bernie fuckinā Sanders could be POTUS today and heād still send weapons to Israel, because they are our main ally in the region who also happens to under near-constant threats and attacks from multiple angles. The absolute best we can reasonably ask for is that weapons are sent on a conditional basis, but nobody wants to talk about that reality.
The Harris campaign made the decision to not break from Biden on Israel, at the cost of a +6 points gain. Thatās the fault of the campaignās calculations to ignore those voters, take them for granted, and instead run to the right with Liz Cheney and having the most lethal Military.
I voted for Harris and told others to do the same. Itās still on the campaign. Blaming voters is just sowing division when we need unity and solidarity to fight against Fascism.
Quote
Our first matchup tested a Democrat and a Republican who āboth agree with Israelās current approach to the conflict in Gazaā. In this case, the generic candidates tied 44ā44. The second matchup saw the same Republican facing a Democrat supporting āan immediate ceasefire and a halt of military aid and arms sales to Israelā. Interestingly, the Democrat led 49ā43, with Independents and 2020 non-voters driving the bulk of this shift.
- Split Ticket (July 2024)
Quotes
In Pennsylvania, 34% of respondents said they would be more likely to vote for the Democratic nominee if the nominee vowed to withhold weapons to Israel, compared to 7% who said they would be less likely. The rest said it would make no difference. In Arizona, 35% said theyād be more likely, while 5% would be less likely. And in Georgia, 39% said theyād be more likely, also compared to 5% who would be less likely.
- New Poll Suggests Gaza Ceasefire and Arms Embargo Would Help Dems with Swing State Voters (Full YouGov Report) (May 2024)
Quotes
- Data For Progress Poll (May 2024)
Quotes
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Majorities of Democrats (67%) and Independents (55%) believe the US should either end support for Israelās war effort or make that support conditional on a ceasefire. Only 8% of Democrats but 42% of Republicans think the US must support Israel unconditionally.
Republicans and Independents most often point to immigration as one of Bidenās top foreign policy failures. Democrats most often select the US response to the war in Gaza.
Thereās no one issue that, independently, could have change the outcome that no other could have as well. Blaming it on just one thing is just as ignorant as blaming it just on voters.
Itās as much on the Harris campaign as the American people who didnāt fucking show up, despite all the evidence that itās going to be so much worse with Trump.
Trying to say āItās anyoneās fault but mineā at this stage is pointless, thoughā¦ because whatās done is done. Weāre fucked. Doing nothing but point fingers only damages us in the long run, because itās that much more energy not spent on fixing it in the future.
I agree that pointing blame is not useful. Understanding the reasons for why voter output for the Democratic Party was depressed by over 10 million voters is in order to find a path forward.
Itās ultimately on the campaign to earn those votes, they failed to with their campaign strategy. People are being squeezed with high costs of living and low wages. Business as usual is not appealing to people who want real change. The data is clear that progressive policies are popular with everyone, that includes Republicans and independents on top of Democrats. The decision to take those voters for Granted without offering them enough on the policy front, and instead move to the right, was a calculated decision by the campaign that failed. Instead, the campaign could have ran boldly on progressive policies. Especially with the Walz pick. They could have hemorrhaged the Republican base by running on policies that will improve their lives too. Such as universal healthcare, affordable public housing / housing first, increasing federal minimum wage and eliminating subminimum wage, free collage, etc. Her policy of taking on Price gouging was great, we needed a lot more of that and a lot less of things like moving to the right on immigration while campaigning with Liz Cheney.
Polls on campaign messaging
How to Win a Swing Voter in Seven Days
āThe Viewā Alternate Universe: Break From Biden in Interviews, Play the Hits in Ads
Polls on policy
How Trump and Harris Voters See Americaās Role in the World
Majority of Americans support progressive policies such as higher minimum wage, free college
Democrats should run on the popular progressive ideas, but not the unpopular ones
Here Are 7 āLeft Wingā Ideas (Almost) All Americans Can Get Behind
Finding common ground: 109 national policy proposals with bipartisan support
Progressive Policies Are Popular Policies
Tim Walzās Progressive Policies Popular With Republicans in Swing States
I see a lot of people preferring to blame voter demographics over recognizing how the Campaign failed to earn those votes. Now more than ever we need solidarity to protect ourselves and our communities from this rise in Fascism.
With Harris you had someone at least you could work with, she reacts and actually suffers political damage. Trump doesnāt give a single shit what anyone wants and gets away with everything.
Over 50% of the god damn country voted for a man who has so many major, should-be career ending flaws we donāt even need to list them anymore. If he kicked a puppy it wouldnāt even make the top 10 worst things heās done. The democrats lost to the stupidest president of all time, a man whoās entire economic policy revolves around tariffs that he fundamentally doesnāt even understand and who cannot seem to open his mouth without lying.
ā¦and youāre here dunking on the people trying to oppose Americaās blatant complicity in genocide. Well, you sure showed them.
Tbf the 50% that voted for trump arenāt here, plain and simple, so thatās why you donāt see engagement with them.
The only political engagement youāll see here on Lemmy shifts overwhelmingly left for all parties, so youāll see mostly squabbling between various left factions.
while youre busy opposing genocide, you got someone significantly worse elected instead. Well done.
Why do so many āmoderatesā insist on acting like the politically engaged people they run into online are the same people who are were so politically disengaged this year that they just didnāt vote?
Like, could you please explain the thinking that someone wouldnāt vote and then keep spending free time talking about it?
Itās not just you, and youāre not the first one I asked.
But everyone else just down votes me for asking and never respond.
Well hereās a comment from someone I was talking to that was politically engaged yet arguing that folks might as well not vote.
Iām not going into the thinking behind it, but itās certainly happening.
Being politically āengagedā on Lemmy doesnāt mean much in terms of ensuring voter participation. Iāve seen plenty of folks with a ādemocrats have to earn my voteā sentiment. That very much seemed to play out given the much lower voter participation for Democrats this year.
Did you link the wrong comment?
What you linked is just someone saying they can understand why someone who thinks both partyās wonāt help, wonāt be likely to vote.
someone who thinks both partyās wonāt help
I donāt read it this way all - there was no conditional on party efficacy and it in fact was an assertion that their lives wonāt change due to who was elected, which changed the overall statement to read like the working class shouldnāt vote.
So, the issue is youāre not understanding what people are sayingā¦
Youāre thinking they said something they didnāt and youāre getting upset about nothing.
Probably for the same reason so many terminally online āpolitically engagedā people insist that theyāre clearly morally and intellectually superior to everyone else despite the fact that all they do is whine about how the ālesser evilā (in just one of thousands of elections, no less) isnāt good enough for them.
Maybe if you stopped focusing so much on the negatives, and started promoting positive change, people wouldnāt argue with you so much.
I think youāre confusing me for someone else
I voted D like I always do, so have most progressive on here from what Iāve seen them say.
What me, and them, have been saying is that Biden and Harris had our votes, but every indication show d they wouldnāt get enough to beat trump.
Itās fine to be upset about that, we are too. Probably more than any moderate, weāre literally losing more than you all, thatās why we care.
But whatās scary is this has all happened before. Moderates refuse to acknowledge theyāre unpopular with Dem voters, and rather than reach out to progressives for help reaching non-voteraā¦
You all just seemed obsessed with turning more Dem voters away from the party.
Maybe if you stopped focusing so much on the negatives, and started promoting positive change, people wouldnāt argue with you so much.
The change we need is better Dem candidates, how the absolute fuck will that happen if weāre not allowed to acknowledge we keep running shitty candidates?
Do you even remember how a fair and open primary is supposed to work?
How is one of those ever possible if no one is allowed to criticize the partyās favorite?
So your solution is less criticism of the party? No wonder the Dems never learn.
I really didnāt.
Edit: meaning I am not American and if I was I would have voted Harris, not that Trump is not significantly worse.
For some reason they still think they can bully people into voting for their guy. This has been thoroughly disproved but still they persist.
She does, so does Biden, just not to the extent trump will.
Itās fucked up the DNC insisted on taking support of genocide as a binary topic out of this election.
Just think, if they cared more about votes than dark money from a foreign government, trump might not be president elect right now. That was always an option you know? Giving Dem voters what they wanted, not just on this issues but multiple others.
Do you think the gamble was worth it now?
Are you willing to do anything different in four years?
These people will blame us for the next 4 years and then blame us when the next neoliberal party darling loses in 2028. Anything they can do to deflect responsibility, hold anyone accountable, and prevent disrupting the status quo in this great race to the bottom.
Biden and Harris already openly pledge unconditional material support to Israel in its genocide, organize Europe in this same direction, and go after anyone opposing them on this. Israel receives what it materially needs to do all pf this. Any further escalation in the West Bank will be done with materials, funds, and diplomatic cover provided by the Biden-Harris administration.
Biden and Harris feign empathy and try to run little games around redefining what a ceasefire is for PR purposes. But in terms of the basic reakity of supporting Israel to do whatever it wants to Palestinians, as in providing them the means they would otherwise nit have to do it, there is no sense in which they are less bad than Trump.
Thereās a lot of stupidity reflected in these elections.
Iāve said before (and will say again) that US elections are like our national-scale county fairs: idiots that your normally never see come out of the woodwork.
Yes she does
Harris did and does support genocide and if you tolerated that you should do some self-criticism.
I mean, they arenāt wrong, are they?
Hamas is all but defeated, Hezbollah is also on their back foot, and even the model caliphate, Iran, has proven to be almost completely ineffective against Israelās defense system. Europe will make empty gestures about war crimes via the toothless ICC, and America is now totally controlled by the Republicans who never wanted a two-state peace process in the first place.
Israel has never in their short history had a better opportunity to go for the power play and deal with the Palestinians however they please, and under Trump we can expect that they wonāt get even a little bit of push back from the US, regardless of how harsh and violently they want to play it.
I expect a fucking bloodbath and a full annexation of the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and possibly parts of southern Lebanon.
But hey, the American people have spoken, and I guess thatās what they wanted.
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Wait, why would it make any difference if Donald is elected?
I thought everyone was saying that Biden and Harris were doing nothing about the Palestinians.
They said they wanted a two state solution. Trump has always been a burn it to the ground guy on that topic.
Biden is Kamalaās boss, so she toes his line while VP, thatās how the job usually works, unless youāre Cheney.
So playing the odds at least thereās a chance of survival with Kamala. With Trump itās just nuked, but without actual nukes.
But hey, Kamala wasnāt good enough so letās go with the nukesš
Once again, human spite has the force to move mountains.
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That finance minister is a Kahanist (Israeli fascist), he doesnāt just want to annex parts of the west bank. He wants to annex all of the west bank and Gaza while renaming both. As someone living in Israel Iāve seen how people are already calling the west bank āJudea and Sumeraā. He also wants to kill all Arabs and Muslims.
āWe did it, Patrick! We saved Palestine!ā
āOur strategy failed and our candidate lost. Quick! Start mocking people for caring about a genocide before they start getting ideas about blaming us for the mess we caused!ā
A shitty campaign does not excuse you from sitting back and allowing fascism to take over. You share in the blame.
A shitty campaign does not excuse you from sitting back and allowing fascism to take over.
I did no such thing. I place the blame on Trump voters, Harris, and the DNC
I wonder if you ever admit fault or if itās always someone else.
Yeah, Iām going to take zero blame for the outcome of these past three presidential elections as I held my nose and voted for the terrible slew of (D) candidates each time which resulted in two losses and one near loss. When are you going to hold the party accountable for their performance and unwillingness to support electable candidates?
Thatās not what I said.
I said:
I wonder if you ever admit fault or if itās always someone else.
Since you didnāt answer, Iām going to have to assume you donāt ever admit fault.
When are you going to hold the party accountable for their performance and unwillingness to support electable candidates?
I do. There is lots of blame to go around and you share in it by sitting back and allowing a genocidal fascist dictator to take power because of your ideological arrogance.
I did answer by saying that Iām going to take zero blame for this mess.
I also said that I did vote for Harris, so Iām confused about your āsitting back and allowing a genocidal fascist dictator to take powerā comment. Iāve been preaching about the DNCās incompetence since they allowed him to get elected in 2016 but Iām always met with opposition from people who think the DNCās losing strategy is the correct strategy even though thereās no metric where this makes any sense.
āDems ran a shit out-of-touch campaign, obviously this absolves all of us who were beating the āDonāt vote against the fascistā drum as hard as we could.ā
Believe it or not, and I understand this is quite unsettling for people with a simplistic view of the world, blame can be shared over multiple parties. Yes, really!
It sounds like youāre still running their campaign for them as you gain enjoyment by mocking those opposed to supporters and enablers of genocide regardless of which tribe they belong to. That was a conscious choice from her, and this is a conscious choice from you to continue your support. She was trying to win an election, but whatās your excuse?
Please scour through my post history and find where Iāve ever told anyone how they should vote.
She was trying to win an election, but whatās your excuse?
Trying to avoid additional genocides here at home, and being rightfully upset that me, my friends, and loved ones are now in the sights of genocide in addition to the Palestinian genocide getting worse and Ukrainian genocide being enabled by Trump and a potential invasion of Taiwan by the CCP?
I guess thatās all small stuff compared to virtue signaling over Palestine. Gotta maintain that spiritual attitude towards politics.
Please scour through my post history and find where Iāve ever told anyone how they should vote.
I donāt know if you, personally, were banging the donāt vote drum, and expressed no opinion on whether YOU were or not. You have, however, jumped in on a comment mocking those who thought that abstaining was in any way a moral choice and saw fit to equate that to āmocking people for caring about genocideā.
And you were trying to do that by throwing a whole other demographic under the bus. We shouldnāt be surprised this country is okay with genocide and then voted for Trump, because it reveals they were already primed for fascism and atomized enough to leave various groups behind.
For conservatives itās women, LGBTQ people, and āthe eliteā, while for liberals it seems to be latino men, Muslims, and the working-class (and kinda trans people because she started getting super vague about helping them near the end of the campaign). The people who right now are like, āWell fuck you guys for voting Trump, I guess itās every person for themselves, got to look after my own nowā, well thatās how lots of people felt before the election when no one was helping them with the genocide, refused to even hear them out, so of course their turnout was depressed.
And they were a tiny minority, btw, if they all voted for Harris she still wouldāve lost. More people didnāt turn out because their savings were decreased because their wages havenāt matched the rise in inflation. Even though Biden had helped lower inflation, people still felt left behind, and rather than not listen to them or say theyāre wrong, they shouldāve empathized with them and said, donāt worry weāll help out.
We will never go forward if we continue on in this manner instead of having solidarity, but that can never happen if you guys keep interpreting warnings and advice as Russian bots and use that as an opportunity to tear down others, plug your ears, and prop up a genocide. And ya, I voted for Harris, they had some good policies, but it was a messaging thing. They shouldāve taken the good economic stuff from their website (stopping price gouging and weāre going to hold companies accountable, the $25,000 to help buy a home thing, fighting pharmacy companies to make medicine affordable, etc), keep abortion in there as it was a strong issue, and maybe add some new stuff (weāll bring back some pandemic measures to help you buy food and build up your savings again, like child tax credit or loans, because thatās when people remember having the most savings), donāt be afraid to say working-class instead of the middle-class, and then hammered that over and over again. Instead their most repeated talking points were that theyāre saving democracy, theyāll reach out to neocon Republicans and put them in the cabinet, have the most lethal army in the world, and keep doing all the same stuff as the current Administration, a presently unpopular one. And abortion, but I think that was actually a good strategy, it just should have been supplemented with the other stuff.
There was also stuff they couldāve said to appease the Muslim voters while still being vague for the pro-genocide people, like āWe will uphold the law with regards to selling weapons to allies.ā Itās not a 100% yes on the arms embargo but it gives hope to people looking for any lifeline on the Gaza issue. Itās like what she about the trans thing.
But anyway, they didnāt do that, and the signs for this result were there when liberals, like the ones in this very thread, refused to abandon bullying as a strategy, and continued to think they could just gaslight people into thinking it would work after it didnāt work in 2016. Maybe itāll work in 2028 if we still have democracy then, but only because people will be tired of Trump again by then and theyāll be able to run literally anyone to beat him (like in 2020).
And you were trying to do that by throwing a whole other demographic under the bus.
Yes, of course, thatās what I was trying to do by advocating for the less bad of two options. /s
Like, this wasnāt āIām sacrificing the Palestinian people for my own safetyā, it was āThis is literally the least bad option for Palestine as well.ā People in Palestine understood this. But apparently itās too emotionally charged for some online āleftistsā.
We will never go forward if we continue on in this manner instead of having solidarity, but that can never happen if you guys keep interpreting warnings and advice as Russian bots **and use that as an opportunity to tear down others, plug your ears, and prop up a genocide. **
This is quite hilarious considering the same people youāre defending.
And ya, I voted for Harris, they had some good policies, but it was a messaging thing.
See, every time a Dem loses, Iām told itās messaging, but every time itās pointed out what messages the Dem actually put out, itās drowned out by the fact that both left and right do nothing but beat the drum on whatever they see as the Dem candidateās weakness regardless of what their strengths are.
There was also stuff they couldāve said to appease the Muslim voters while still being vague for the pro-genocide people, like āWe will uphold the law with regards to selling weapons to allies.ā Itās not a 100% yes on the arms embargo but it gives hope to people looking for any lifeline on the Gaza issue. Itās like what she about the trans thing.
I donāt know, maybe something like saying the Palestinian people must be helped to ārealize their right to dignity, security, freedom and self-determinationā while calling for a ceasefire and saying she āwill not be silentā on Gazan suffering?
Oh, wait, thatās right, the selfsame people who said āCalling for a ceasefire is all I need to vote for the Dem candidateā immediately moved their goalposts once it happened, because Palestinian genocide was never the actual issue. They donāt give a single fuck about more deaths or less deaths. They just want to play purity politics, and people giving them asspats for doing so are encouraging this behavior.
But anyway, they didnāt do that, and the signs for this result were there when liberals, like the ones in this very thread, refused to abandon bullying as a strategy, and continued to think they could just gaslight people into thinking it would work after it didnāt work in 2016.
āBullying is when you point out that a strategy is dogshit and senseless, and the more you do it, the more bullying it is.ā
Like, I donāt know what the fuck to tell you. You voted for Harris, so you clearly understand on some level that abstaining is a dogshit answer, but you seem to be bending backwards to accommodate morons whoāve just willfully assisted in the deaths of tens of thousands of people, minimum, for no other reason than their own vanity.
maybe itāll work in 2028 if we still have democracy then,
Wow, I really wish someone wouldāve emphasized that losing democracy was a very real consequence of throwing the election, but apparently, thatās bullying.
Like, this wasnāt āIām sacrificing the Palestinian people for my own safetyā, it was āThis is literally the least bad option for Palestine as well.ā People in Palestine understood this. But apparently itās too emotionally charged for some online āleftistsā.
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No, the least bad option is no genocide.
If everyone who tried to quell dissent on Harrisās policies on Gaza instead pushed on the administration I guarantee they wouldāve changed their mind. They adapted other issues through out the campaign. But they didnāt on this one because they thought they could get away with a genocide and still win the election.
And even your article says they donāt think Harris winning will stop the suffering either, so very motivating for people /s. If you want voters, you need to give them motivation. Apathy is the worst thing that can happen for turn out. Telling them to vote for the person killing their family sounds like the most demotivating thing I can think of. Itās not emotionally charged, well it is, but itās just electoral strategy, too.
The good news is that they have established their power as a coalition, and hopefully we can leverage this in the future. Now the Zionists arenāt the only votes they have to be scared of losing, and we can build on that to pull the Dems left. Maybe. I hope lol.
This is quite hilarious considering the same people youāre defending.
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What people? Those trying to push the party left so it doesnāt lose like this every year? Genocide victims? Sorry, but I will never feel bad about defending people fighting against a genocide or suffering from one. Youāre willing to try but my morals donāt bend that way.
See, every time a Dem loses, Iām told itās messaging, but every time itās pointed out what messages the Dem actually put out, itās drowned out by the fact that both left and right do nothing but beat the drum on whatever they see as the Dem candidateās weakness regardless of what their strengths are.
Tap for spoiler
True, everyone has an opinion. The right says the Dems are too far left, but Kamala hewed to the center hard this time, including a record number of Republicans at the DNC, and still lost. There are a bunch of other reasons I think this keeps revealing itself to be false (blue candidates, including women, and ballot measures winning down ballot all over the country even in states that went to Trump, Trump winning on vague populist vibes of the economy as revealed in opinion polls with the other fascist part of his policies like immigration or scary trans people being ranked less in priority, his more multi-racial voters suggesting that too, the change in numbers between 2020 for Trump and Harris shows people not switching to conservative but instead just a depressed turn out, the Muslim vote numbers for Biden in 2020 being like 86% compared to Harris in 2024 being something like 40%, etc). She ran a standard Democratic campaign emblematic of not only the current administration but every one during their lifetime since Reagan, and people are tired of neoliberalism, although most canāt express that, they can still feel it. People hear about these nice, liberal policies, but they donāt see it reflected in their bank accounts, so they stop caring about the Democratās technocratic incremental 12 point plans after awhile, because theyāve heard these are happening under Biden, too, but they figure they must not do anything. But I guess thatās just another opinion lol.
I know other people think itās her not having enough time or Biden not dropping out soon enough or something. That might have helped give her more time to spread her policies, but I doubt that was the main reason. I still think she couldāve won with the right strategy with the time she had and that huge upswing of energy when she entered the race.
I donāt know, maybe something like saying the Palestinian people must be helped to ārealize their right to dignity, security, freedom and self-determinationā while calling for a ceasefire and saying she āwill not be silentā on Gazan suffering?
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Itās hard for people to believe that when the administration you are a part of says the same thing while continuing to arm the genocidal IDF army for the tunes of billions of dollars. Not to mention denying Palestinian speakers at the DNC while inviting families of hostages, bringing up October 7th first every interview and calling that the biggest tragedy, saying you wouldnāt change anything from the Biden campaign, emphasizing Israel every time Palestine is brought up before and after Palestine, kicking out a Muslim person in the audience at a rally, sending the cops after protestors, saying weāll have the most lethal army in the world, saying Iran is the worldās biggest threat while their neighbor is doing a genocide, her staff reiterating that an arms embargo was 100% off the table removing any chance of leverage to enact material change, Trump going to their community before you do, and it goes on and onā¦ That quote comes off insincere when everything else you do and say indicates the opposite. The fact that another red line has come and passed without the US changing position on Israel proves the Biden administrationās insincerity on this issue even more.
Oh, wait, thatās right, the selfsame people who said āCalling for a ceasefire is all I need to vote for the Dem candidateā immediately moved their goalposts once it happened, because Palestinian genocide was never the actual issue. They donāt give a single fuck about more deaths or less deaths. They just want to play purity politics, and people giving them asspats for doing so are encouraging this behavior.
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Nah, itās because the White House purposefully and cynically used a different definition of the word ceasefire than the one all the activists and aid workers understood it to mean. This article explains it well. A ceasefire without leverage would cause the genocide to resume immediately after a hostage exchange, and everyone knows this because Israel is the aggressor and has been since the 1920ās. If her campaign didnāt clarify that an arms embargo is 100% off the table, against our own laws btw, than maybe just a call for a ceasefire wouldāve worked, but I doubt it without some sort of explanation of how she was going to accomplish it. She was willing to explain how sheād accomplish other policies, such as through tax credits and such, but not that one for some reason except to say Diplomacy which hasnāt worked for the last year, and everyone knows wonāt work now.
āBullying is when you point out that a strategy is dogshit and senseless, and the more you do it, the more bullying it is.ā
I hope not, because thatās what Iāve been saying about the Democratic electoral strategy since before the election lol. I see bullying as more ad hominem attacks, like telling people if they donāt vote for the person arming the person killing their family, youāll exult in them all dieing or getting deported. Not saying youāve done that specifically, buts itās gotten pretty racist in here lately (but not as bad as Reddit at least).
Like, I donāt know what the fuck to tell you. You voted for Harris, so you clearly understand on some level that abstaining is a dogshit answer, but you seem to be bending backwards to accommodate morons whoāve just willfully assisted in the deaths of tens of thousands of people, minimum, for no other reason than their own vanity.
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The thing is, I thought it wouldāve been a lot easier to convince the candidate to change their genocide policy than convincing thousands of people to change their moral values. Essentially, itās because I wanted her to win that I foresaw a problem with her electoral strategy and kept trying to do something. Itās why I started that vote swapping thread that went nowhere and kept trying to encourage empathizing with the unhappy people in the US rather than ignoring them. Because I saw blaming the voters in 2016 didnāt fix shit, and instead weāre going to have to learn some lessons. But no one was learning them, instead trusting that 2020 wasnāt just a fluke because of the pandemic.
Idk man, I know weāre all hurt right now, but at this point Iām seriously losing hope in the Democratic party, and I blame them 1000% more than the voters because if I could see the mistakes being made thereās no way other more qualified people couldnāt either. If they win 2028 itās purely because continual enshittification and failing material conditions means that the voters will vote against anyone in power during the death throes of this falling empire, and not because theyāll change anything. Thatās my guess - that unless another Bernie-like figure with Obamaās charisma comes, in whoās also promising sweeping changes to the internal systems of the US and not just trying to treat the symptoms - that weāre going to be switching off on one-term Presidents forever.
At least some other people are realizing this, too. I just hope that the country is not too atomized to assemble some sort of alternate coalition before its too late. We need to get off these tracks before we fall into fascism.
Sorry for the length of all this, I wonāt blame you if you skip most of It. Adding spoiler tags so it doesnāt take up too much room in the thread. Honestly, this comment has been a great way to organize my thoughts and feeling on all this, too. It wasnāt when I started, I didnāt mean to subject you and Lemmy to it, I think weāre all just looking for catharsis right now lol.
