Title says it all.
I am a huge 40k fan and I know how problematic 40k is with its portrayal of endless war and facism. Comrade @relay@lemmygrad.ml has put it best:
Maybe all of the 40k factions are fascist and that universe’s lore has no dialectic of class struggle and is to violent to be realistic, thus serves as part of the superstructure for fascism.
it reinforces the idea that the conflict between tribes will always supercede the conflict between classes. It’s wrong on so many levels.
And yet I can’t hate it. I have a hard time taking 40k serious and seeing it as more than a silly boardgame with cool minis and (deliciously) stupid lore.
Same with B99. I know that the show is horrid copacanda, I know that shows like this prevent people from seeing pigs as the pigs they are because “funny cop show portraits them as silly and relatable.” But I still like the show a lot. I like the characters and just pretend that it plays in a parallel universe were cops aren’t the worst.
I just sort of suppress any critical thoughts and take those things at face value without thinking about what they imply. It’s just very hard to find alternatives.
So yeah I feel terrible for finding enjoyment in this stuff even though I know I shouldn’t. Can anyone relate or do you perhaps have similar feelings towards other franchises?
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“The Battle at Lake Changjin” is based on real battles where Korean and Chinese communists killed American invaders. Good stuff.
I love the way they portray the US military and especially McArthur in this film. And I love showing it to liberal friends who think they see through the bias of the Western stuff they watch, and think the Western stuff is just a little biased but mostly accurate.
History seems to agree with the Chinese portrayal of McArthur. He was a vile excuse for a human.
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History seems to agree with the Chinese portrayal of McArthur
Even US history classes can’t manage to paint him as a decent person
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War films from Russia and China actually celebrate real war heroes defeating fascism.
Just be careful with the Russian war movies after 1985. Some are straight up anti-Soviet propaganda (Mikhalkov’s “Tired by the sun” series). Other are simply crap or revisionist as hell (Zoya, Devyataev, T-34)
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If you can enjoy it, enjoy it. No entertainment is completely free of issues and problems. It is frustrating watching something with friends and they clearly don’t examine the deeper themes whatsoever (“It’s just a fun superhero movie, there’s nothing deeper about it, you overanalyse everything!”)
But if you’re just enjoying something on its own, especially something with a huge variety of writers coming at the franchise with wildly different interpretations like 40k, there’s nothing wrong with that.
I’ve touched on this before, but as socialists, we need to be able to reach the masses. The masses aren’t interested in theory, or why their favourite cop show is problematic, they just want fun distractions. You have to ease people into that stuff, and you start by being a regular person who can enjoy things rather than an overly uptight “stop having fun guys” kind of person.
*Insert that Ultra-Maoist copypasta here. *
It is frustrating watching something with friends and they clearly don’t examine the deeper themes whatsoever (“It’s just a fun superhero movie, there’s nothing deeper about it, you overanalyse everything!”)
I pretty much never examine the deeper themes of whatever I’m watching
I’m a professional writer, cursed to analyse the dialogue and plot in everything I watch. I can’t just “switch brain off, enjoy” at all anymore.
Seeing as the right wing of media is plain spoken fascism and the left wing of media is co-opted Western leftist “so close yet so far”, if any of us had a problem we would enjoy roughly 0 media 😅
As long as it’s not utter dreck like say recent Marvel movies (in which case I feel more disgusted than guilty for any kind of enjoyment), not really. 40k to me is especially redeemable because it’s not trying to depict anything good. But some 40k fans don’t seem to understand this and are capable of the most deranged imaginable takes on what it’s about, this for sure is true.
40k actually got pretty funny to me, as GW are trying to portray Tau as communist, when the closest to communism by a country mile as they’re described are…Craftworld Eldar=) Automated production, near total social mobility, meritocracy, war only waged by necessity… Still dicks to the others, of course, couldn’t have it any other way in 40k.
I mostly dropped it because GW aren’t even trying to keep the lore consistent. Shitty philosophical and political ideas in fiction just help me separate it from reality.
When content is both uninteresting and pushing some cringe, that’s…yeah, that just amplifies the cringe damage.
trying to portray Tau as communist
Pretty sure that was just fanbase memes, GW was too busy with shitty, half-baked Asian stereotypes. Meanwhile Gav Thorpe, one of the most prominent Black Library authors, claimed in a
AMA that Tau were “based on NATO”. Which is a separate layer of hilarious
Fucking what?!
What’s next?
“Hey Guys, Dan Abnett here I just wanted to check in to tell you that the Imperium is actually based on Ukraine and Chaos is modern day Russia.”
Thinking about it that might already be the case anyway.
Lmao, that thread. I’ll try to find the thread with Gav, see what was said verbatim.
Incidentally, I once saw a fan (mod of a 40k RP server) claim “Imperium are the Nazis, and Chaos are the Jews”, and then get mad and throw a tantrum, when people pointed out comparing victims of Holocaust to a faction that practices all sorts of monstrous rituals and specifically seeks to destroy reality is, you know, not a good look. But that’s fans, and fans are silly
Nice. Didn’t know about that. Are we sure he meant it in a based way?
The whole “that’s something vaguely Asian and tOtAlItArIaN” thing with the Tau was always a part of that for me though. I mean, China and DPRK’ve been the main commie boogeymen since USSR collapsed. That’s probably why the meme sprung up to begin with.
Are we sure he meant it in a based way?
I’ll try to find the actual thread or screenshots. But he probably did not tbh. Agreed with the rest
No. I’m too busy seething at the incredible low quality garbage Marvel/Disney and everyone else churns out to stop and be too angry about that. I just keep reminding myself the quality of art/culture will improve after the revolution and not before. Right now I must suffer the decay and pain of having garbage shoved in my face and having other people effusively tell me how great it is. Not even getting into the propaganda which is awful, on the merits, technical/story-telling etc level it’s just a wasteland out there and I weep. Lots of slop. Not that I don’t occasionally find a piece I guiltily enjoy.
Though admittedly I kind of avoid the worst offenders. I mean I do enjoy older media and I guess I excuse it as it was just that way back then, they were just sexist, racist, homophobic etc (I cringe at the really in your face stuff but the casual pervasive things not so much). To me it’s all an academic exercise. I know what I’m watching is a reflection of a time and place and type of thinking. I think older stuff actually helps in that I can say it just was that way whereas if you shove some 2 year old Marvel movie stuffed full of end of history liberal nonsense that raises my hackles because hey, these people are around me and they’re annoying and smug and gah.
I zero in on like subversive elements in older movies too and I think in a way modern movies are much less subversive in ways that matter, end of history and all that nonsense rotting people’s brains. Take just as an example Terminator 2, the main bad guy robot is a cop and he’s a cop for a reason and Cameron has stated that’s because cops see themselves as better than other humans, they’re apart from us, they use violence, etc so in what’s otherwise a mindless effects and explosion-fest you have these little nuggets to chew on. Truly dangerous to capital they’re not but at least they’re not full of the open militarism you see in films these days, worship for the US military, America-Fuck-Yeah stuff even if there are no military it’s American scientists or cops or researchers.
Side-track but fucking fuck Arrival. Fuck the writers. Writing America as the country that has reasonable, rational researchers who discover the aliens don’t want war, meanwhile the irrational Chinese/Asians are so war-like and aggressive (just like in real life the writers want to nudge you, whereas America in real life they nudge you, is just like the protagonist) they get bent on a warpath with the aliens and act exactly as the US would act in actuality in trying to rally everyone to attack them.
So I guess I could say I don’t feel guilty because I get annoyed if it’s too bad and then I just stop. As to guilt, it’s what I have. I speak English, I live in the west, the US is the primary media creator, only China remains and very little of their content gets even subtitles let alone a dub.
After listening to and reading Parenti, I couldn’t watch any/liberal entertainment media at all. It wasn’t a feeling of guilt put undiluted anger. Books, shows, graphic novels. Everything.
Thankfully that feeling relented. Now I can enjoy most fiction (written, audio, or audio-visual). I’m a little bit more discerning than I was. But I can even enjoy the stuff that’s right on the nose because it’s so ridiculous.
So long as you’re treating 40k as entertainment rather than a guide to life, it’s fine, I think. You can always critique it while you’re engaging with it. Just know that it could ruin it for you for a while, until you ‘re-adjust’ to enjoying things that you are critical about.
First and I think only time I’ve argued with comrades here was over 40k.
I think at the end of the day any given 40k fan can be someone who’s aware of the issues with 40k but still enjoys it (for so many possible reasons, but growing up with it being the focus of your social circles is a big one I think), or they could be someone who enjoys the fascist fantasy, or they could be completely politically ignorant and unaware of how much it’s shaping their worldview.
There’s too many variables. There’s a vast diversity of liberal media out there, an even bigger variety of people consuming it, and every combination thereof should be judged on its own merits.
I used to love Age of Sail Royal Navy/British Empire stuff. I read all the Patrick O’Brien books (Master and Commander etc), Hornblower, and tangentially Bernard Cornwell’s Sharpe books. I can’t read any of it anymore without it making my skin crawl, but I can remember how much I loved those stories. I’ll still get goose bumps listening to the Sharpe theme, but I’d rather pull my brains out through my nose than defend the actions of the British Empire. I don’t think there’s a contradiction there. It’s just the emotional vestiges of the growth and change we go through as humans. I feel a little sadness and nostalgia when I see the colonial Hong Kong flag I grew up under burning, but I’ll also be the one that set it on fire.
And Star Trek. I don’t doubt for a second that Gene Rodenberry died a closet communist. The shows themselves are a mess ideologically, with writers and showrunners of different ideologies all throwing their ideas into the mix of what the Federation is and how a stateless, moneyless society that has a science-exploration-diplomacy space navy with a military rank system actually works under the hood. But then because of that ambiguity Star Trek becomes what you make of it. I can see the old me, who enjoyed it as a space military thing, getting pissed off about the recent musical episode while the current me thought it was genius.
At the end of the day what happens between you and liberal (any) media is unique to you, and only you can judge the effect it’s having on you. Where we have to be careful, though, is how we conspicuously consume and talk about media around other people, because our actions and words affect how they interact with the same.
consuming yummy media in my tumtum
酒肉穿肠过,佛祖心中留 Wine and meat pass through the intestines, but the Buddha stays in your heart. As long as your faith is firm, you don’t have to feel guilty.
This is the way to be
I get it. In terms of fiction I can let it slide and just enjoy the entertainment as long as it’s not in your face lib grandstanding. For example I’ve enjoyed the current Star Wars series.
In terms of documentaries I just can’t anymore. My partner enjoys the Netflix true financial and cult crime type stuff and I get headaches from that kind of non-materialist drivel.
I actually just started watching some C-dramas and I’m having a great time.
Yeah I know what you mean.
I feel like 40k or B99 problems stem from the liberal environment in which they are created. In another society I wouldn’t have any problems with them. A show about silly cops doing silly stuff comes of way different in a communist society where the job of the police really is helping and protecting others instead of being the skull breakers and murderers of capitalism. That’s part of the reason why I can find enjoyment in B99 but not in stuff like the Rookie.
B99 is almost a caricature and while it never engages in any solutions or real (read non liberal “a few bad apples”) criticism of the police. It’s comical enough for me to go “Yeah that’s fiction.” While still being aware that at the end of the day it shows racist murderers and enforcers of the bourgeois rule as funny good guys.
The Rookie tries to make you feel sympathy for real life cops sooooo bad it’s ridiculous. It’s rather obvious that the intention of the show is to portray a “relasticish” police drama. Which just doesn’t gel with me since there just is nothing sympathetic about real life cops at all.
Andor was nice in parts, I thought they portrayed the efficient evil of the Empire really well from a personal level and the uprising kicked ass. Wish there was more of SW from the people’s perspective, thought they might go there with the second sequel when they had that kid slave during the casino heist, but it didn’t go anywhere.
No. I did feel some loss when i realised how much horribleness is included in it, but thinking of it in marxist terms in attempt to deconstruct it replaces suprisingly most of it with fun too.
Can relate. And frankly 40k is the least troublesome of it all, probably due to being not as overtly propaganda. Despite being very visibly idealist at the core, and very palpably liberal bias beneath it all. But if you read it as a “what happens if capitalism does become the end of history?” it feels less guilty. Certain things just make sense. Plus painting is fairly relaxing.
But then there are other media… Video games? Action movies? Heck, I used to be into capeshit comics for a while. Now that, that makes me feel not just guilty, but outright dirty
It gets better—or at least different—when you come to no longer enjoy much liberal media. The bad news is the dearth of alternatives to it.
Yup, that’s me right there