• archomrade [he/him]@midwest.socialOP
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      5 months ago

      Idk, how much information is enough to make a determination on whether Israel is committing war crimes? Certainly not much more, if the ICC is already pursuing arrest warrants

      • Optional@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Letā€™s take it as a given. Youā€™re saying you know all the reasons the US administration has to still support Israel. Donā€™t even need to look.

        You Do. Not. Know. Iā€™m not saying I know, Iā€™m not saying theyā€™re good reasons. Iā€™m saying itā€™s such a dense and complex political issue that people study it for their whole lives, entire consultancies exist to support it, and a server full of recent graduates who want to support trump saying they know it all are full of shit.

        • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.socialOP
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          5 months ago

          If only someone was pushing them to articulate their reasons for defending the war crimes that are objectively happening

          Not doing so is doing nothing to address the suspicion that they might be allowing them to happen because they have imperial interests in the region

          Itā€™s only complicated if you think neocolonialism is a valid means to an imperialist end. If you reject those outright it gets pretty simple

          • Optional@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            If only someone was pushing them to articulate their reasons for defending the war crimes that are objectively happening

            You understand itā€™s not a good idea to do that for some of the reasons right? What reasons might those be? Can you think of any?

            Not doing so is doing nothing to address the suspicion that they might be allowing them to happen because they have imperial interests in the region

            ā€œAddress the suspicionā€? To have a democratic western-friendly foothold in the heart of the oil countries? You need to hear that reason that is so public itā€™s a cliche? What other ā€˜imperial interestsā€™ are there? Exploiting labor or something? Setting up cotton plantations in Israel? Iā€™m not suspecting those, but hey surprise me.

            Itā€™s only complicated if you think neocolonialism is a valid means to an imperialist end. If you reject those outright it gets pretty simple

            I think you know youā€™re reaching with this one but ok. Letā€™s use ā€œ1. The policy or practice of a wealthy or powerful nation in extending its influence into a less developed one, especially in exploiting that nationā€™s resources.ā€ unless you want to argue some finer nuance with ā€˜neocolonialismā€™. Why do you think Israel is ā€˜less developedā€™? What resources is the US exploiting that isnā€™t the ā€˜democratic foothold in the middle eastā€™?

            An ā€œimperialist endā€ huh boy that does sound bad, what end would that be? Preventing eternal war between eternally sworn enemies in a gas station the rest of the world uses? Probably not what you were going for - yours probably has the word genocide in it I bet.

            So if itā€™s so simple - you write the check. Whatā€™s your simple solution? Lemme save you the time complaining about it; youā€™ll say cut off all aid to Israel, Iā€™ll point out Bibi has specifically promised that wonā€™t stop him and then Iā€™ll point out that russia would love to buy some more Israel and youā€™ll either love that idea or pretend it doesnā€™t matter or - hey maybe you have the answer, youā€™re the super genius person the world has been waiting for to solve this problem. But I doubt it.

            And as far as some ā€œFake nuance to argumentsā€, Iā€™m not saying thatā€™s not a thing, Iā€™m saying prove it. Gimme the simple version youā€™ve got all printed up on colorful paper. What is it? Is it genius? Is it feasible? Is it even coherent?

            • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.socialOP
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              5 months ago

              What other ā€˜imperial interestsā€™ are there? Exploiting labor or something? Setting up cotton plantations in Israel? Iā€™m not suspecting those, but hey surprise me.

              Idk, you kind of already nailed it with the oil. Exploiting the natural resources of sovereign nations by regional military dominance is definitionally imperialist.

              I think you know youā€™re reaching with this one but ok. Letā€™s use ā€œ1. The policy or practice of a wealthy or powerful nation in extending its influence into a less developed one, especially in exploiting that nationā€™s resources.ā€ unless you want to argue some finer nuance with ā€˜neocolonialismā€™. Why do you think Israel is ā€˜less developedā€™? What resources is the US exploiting that isnā€™t the ā€˜democratic foothold in the middle eastā€™?

              Lmao, Palestine is the less developed nation, and Isreal is the colony. I didnā€™t think that one needed to be explained. The resource is oil and trade routes, the foothold is the control over them.

              Preventing eternal war between eternally sworn enemies in a gas station the rest of the world uses?

              Even at my most angry, I donā€™t think iā€™ve ever had this much contempt for another nation/people/continent. That is the wildest show of arogance I have so far seen on lemmy. But if you think the US has been an actor that is keeping the peace and not fomenting conflict in the middle east, then holy fuck I donā€™t know what I could possibly tell you to convince you otherwise. I mean for fucks sake, the last three decades of american foreign activity has been primarily defined by active military conflict there. Go ahead and convince me those were peacekeeping missions.

              So if itā€™s so simple - you write the check. Whatā€™s your simple solution?

              Get the fuck out of the middle east and let the people there decide what they want to do with the natural resources. It would be hard to imagine that whatever conflict that erupts there in the vacuum could possibly be worse than the millions of people the US and their partners have killed there over the last three decades.

              Gimme the simple version youā€™ve got all printed up on colorful paper. What is it? Is it genius? Is it feasible? Is it even coherent?

              If your only ideological concern is freedom and democracy, then there are no interests the US has in the middle east that come close to meeting them. Itā€™s as easy as ā€œi oppose colonial and imperialist activities no matter what form they takeā€.

              • Optional@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                Exploiting the natural resources of sovereign nations by regional military dominance is definitionally imperialist.

                Fair. Except Israel doesnā€™t have oil. And they donā€™t dominate the nations that do. Your move.

                Lmao, Palestine is the less developed nation, and Isreal is the colony.

                Israel is the colony huh. Interesting. How do we get oil and - ?? ā€œtrade routesā€ ? from ā€œour colonyā€, Israel? And - just to put a fine point on it then, Israel is not a sovereign nation under your ā€˜definitionā€™, right, itā€™s a US colony? Okay. You donā€™t think thatā€™s - of course you donā€™t.

                Even at my most angry, I donā€™t think iā€™veĀ everĀ hadĀ this muchcontempt for another nation/people/continent.

                What nation/people/continent? The middle east, so-called, has many. Youā€™ve taken great offense on behalf of one of them - which one?

                That is theĀ wildestshow of arogance I have so far seen on lemmy.

                Yeah cause you donā€™t hear yourself.

                I mean for fucks sake, the last threeĀ decadesĀ of american foreign activity has been primarily defined by active military conflict there. Go ahead and convince me those were peacekeeping missions.

                Wouldnā€™t dream of it. I protested them all. And all of them - get this straight, because this is where youā€™re fucking up - ALL OF THEM were specifically republican led. Actual war criminals Bush & Cheney still wandering around out here not worried at all by your biden genocide wankery. Youā€™re specifically calling to hurt the electability of the party that fought for you against all those wars and for the party that will 100% create more of them.

                That you donā€™t see that is the most arrogant idiocy Iā€™ve ever seen on lemmy plus infinity plus one!. Or- or did you want nuance. I dunno, kinda mixed signals there really.

                So if itā€™s so simple - you write the check. Whatā€™s your simple solution?

                Get the fuck out of the middle east and let the people there decide what they want to do with the natural resources. It would be hard to imagine that whatever conflict that erupts there in the vacuum could possibly be worse than the millions of people the US and their partners have killed there over the last three decades.

                Yeah thatā€™s fucking brilliant. And exactly what we expected youā€™d say. Are you familiar with nuclear weapons? You know North Korea or maybe Pakistan (or, hell - russia!) will sell you one pretty cheap. You hate Israel so much, badda-bing, problem solved itā€™s all a party now. You think thatā€™s unlikely? Goddamn. How can you miss that. You think the Wahabbists are interested in maybe opening a dialogue? Yeah? Mr. Bone Sawā€™s gonna look over at newly-russiaā€™d Israel and say hey buddy ol pals ainā€™t it great the imperialist pig dogs are gone? Wanna play videogames and drink sodas together?

                Do nothing. Well shit you are the super genius weā€™ve been missing. If only those warmongering (checks notes) Democrats would get out of power we could really get things done.

                Itā€™s as easy as ā€œi oppose colonial and imperialist activities no matter what form they takeā€.

                Absolutist positions are a trap. At best. At worst they create terrible outcomes. And youā€™ll have a 100% chance of losing this election. So - since your genius foreign policy is literally nothing, and since your klaxon teeth-grinding that biden ā€œsupports genocideā€ is only able to help trump, and since you have a 0% chance to help anyone - least of all the people you think youā€™re, i guess you think youā€™re helping? - why donā€™t you try a different way to ā€œoppose colonial and imperialist activitiesā€? Maybe aim a little lower to start? Win a local election, maybe?