No hate for the middle class. I canāt help but enjoy the irony of people who thought they had solidarity with capital talking like Ned Ludd all of a sudden.
No hate for the middle class. I canāt help but enjoy the irony of people who thought they had solidarity with capital talking like Ned Ludd all of a sudden.
I didnāt actually. I mentioned GotoMeeting, WebEx and IRC as methods for ways to work remotely, but not things like github (because it wasnāt around). Sure, CVS was around, but not Mercurial or git. Everyone wanted to own a blazing fast T1 connectionā¦ Around the year 2000. Iām sure there were people working remotely because that was technically possible, but it wasnāt something everyone had access to.
Well for me I just graduated high school so I didnāt have the money to move yet. When I could afford it, I did move - to a HCOL area which didnāt pay well. I helped multiple startups and yeah, probably wasnāt paid what I was worth but then again few people actualy are.
For the person seasoned web designer (well, to be clear they were senior web designer, having worked as a web designer for multple years. Iām not sure how many years, but considering the web was invented in 1989, it couldnāt have been more than 11, though I think they was working as a graphic or digital designer prior to that.
You ok there kiddo? You seem to be harboring a lot of animosity on this subject. Yeah, I mean I canāt remember exactly the circumstances and I didnāt look outside the job market for my first real job in my industry which I got out of high school so I canāt speak to what the next biggest city was doing in terms of web dev agencies or other tech companies sprouting up. I think this was during the dotcom bubble so maybe I shouldāve just predicted the future and up and moved myself and all the employees at the local web dev agency to silicon valley and got some of that sweet VC money. It worked out well for everyone involved, as I understand it.
First it was ādecades of experienceā now itās āmaybe 11 yearsā those are big differences.
I never mentioned silicon valley or VC bubbles, no one can predict the future. But if someone with decades of experience as you put it was making nearly minimum wage, they should have at least tried commuting or moving to their nearest Metropolitan area. āWeāve tried nothing and weāre all out of ideas!ā
Yeah, so I donāt think I need to explain to you how time works but maybe I should clarify. Weāre talking about a few different people and weāre talking about multiple points in time. All while Iām trying to anonymize the story so that I donāt get doxxed.
I was hired at a local web dev company around the year 2000. At this time, I had just graduated high school. I was working as a āweb developerā which in modern day parlance means Iām doing the role of a full stack web developer. Keep in mind at this time javascript was pretty new and so there wasnāt a need to split between front and backend. Thatās me though, I didnāt have the experience back then.
However, during that time, (the year 2000) at that same company was a person who had been working in the graphic design industry for most of her life. She was older than me, I think a grandmother at that time.
Now, the web itself was invented by CERN in 1989, so absolutely zero web designers existed (as a job title) prior to 1989. The people who became web designers were already working with some form of graphic design on digital media / computer-based graphic design. At a certain point (Iām not this person and Iām not an actual historian so I donāt know the date) in the past, prior to 1989, there were no such thing as computer based graphic artists, since no software existed to create computer graphics. The people who became graphic designers working with computer-based graphic design were artists, illustrators and designers working with physical media. Etcā¦
This is why I say someone (in the year 2000) was doing the work of building user experiences with decades of experience in their industry. In a meritocracy, this person wouldāve been one of the more skilled web designers around and indeed they were and the firm was lucky to have hired them. The computer doesnāt make the UX happen, the people who have been studying and practicing design for years make it happen. That relevant graphic design experience doesnāt go away just because new technology comes out.
You may have been confused or I may have mistyped. I donāt know this personās salary, but I know mine. I was paid minimum wage, and only ever got a $0.50 / hour raise. This company would also have their paychecks bounce and eventually went out of business. Itās entirely possible the senior web designer made a lot of money but from the sounds of it this was not the case.
My entire point here is you seem to be mistaken on the following:
My issue for a lot of my life was earnestly thinking that my loyalty to a company meant anything. I know better now. The larger part is that though Iām now making closer to what I probably should have been years ago (since Iāve been working as a full stack dev since 2000), but itās still going to take me a bit to build up a buffer so I can feel confident losing my job for a few months while i find a new one. It seems to take about 3-6 months to find a new tech job, and thatās just how these things work these days. And now that tech firms are salivating at AI and weāre seeing more layoffs, Iām not entirely sure what the future holds.
One thing is for sure though, we arenāt living in a meritocracy. If we were, this conversation wouldnāt be happening because everyone at that company back in 2000 would have been paid what they were worth, and that company would have succeeded. In fact the one thing I learned from businesses is the best way to have a business succeed is to hire someone who has strong connections to people with deep pockets.
Iām not confused, you wrote the following:
You claimed to know at least an approximation of their salary with decades of experience, which was not much more than yours was, at minimum wage + $0.50. Thatās ridiculous if true. Even if they only had 11 actual years of web experience + the other years in other related design pre-internet.
You keep changing your history and points to fit your narrative. I understand anonymizing things but youāre making specific claims then saying you donāt know when called out.
Yes, well sometimes coworkers talk. Salary numbers may have been mentioned but I canāt remember. What I do remember is that they had another job at the time teaching web design, that they relied on medical insurance when they had an accident only to discover that the company had not been paying their insurance premium. It was around that time that I was terminated, so I didnāt keep in touch with them much after that. Suffice it to say, this company didnāt have enough money to meet payroll each month and it meant one employee would have a bounced paycheck - whomever got to the bank to cash it last.
Yes, it was ridiculous and true. Jobs in this town were slim for this talent and by and large, no companies at that time were hiring for remote work, despite it being technically possible as we were all working on the web itself.
I really donāt though. Iāve been very consistent throughout this conversation. I find it funny that you think youāve āgot meā when Iāve literally experienced this myself. I could prove all of this to you but it would cost me my and their anominimty and this convo isnāt worth it just to prove to you that YES, sometimes people (even professionals with lots of experience) end up in shitty situations.
Iām really surprised you need a conversation this detailed and need to backcheck every detail of my story just to understand that point.
But by all means, continue to do so if you really care. Just know that things arenāt going to match up 100% due to trying to recall things from memory of 23-24 or so years ago. Things which arenāt really needed as the story of people making a little bit of money in their first job and then going on to make more money in other jobs is a story that I donāt really think needs to be explained in vivid detail.
Then why say this at the start of your comment thread?
Either you knew their rough salary, or canāt remember. Which was it?
I know some people making six figures with second jobs, especially if theyāre teaching in their field or live in a high COL area. It doesnāt mean they make āminimum wageā but maybe they live paycheck to paycheck. Those are very, very different.
Sorry. The exact salary amount doesnāt matter in this case, because I know enough about their situation (which I wonāt be disclosing to you) to do a rough estimate based on their quality of life and from the information theyāve given me.
FFS man, chill out. Save this energy for when youāre debating some right-wing lunatic trying to push bullshit narratives.
I canāt remember lots of things. Hence my name, Dipshit. Iām a dumb pile of shit with ADHD. Iāve had a lot of conversations over the years and I donāt remember everything from them. What got encoded in my dumb little memory was that they werenāt making much more than me.
But shit man, what youāre not seeming to understand here is that:
minimum wage x full time work ~= $A
this personās salary at this job + this personās salary at thier other job ~= $B
$A and $B are not very far off. Functionally, they are the same when compared to $C, what either of our salaries shouldāve been, even with me being fresh out of high school, but still having a few projects under my belt.
If you donāt accept it, donāt accept it. Itās one example out of many that people can provide. I donāt really have a desire to continue trying to anonymize parts of my employment history to you in an effort to convince some stranger that the things I know happened happened.
The real conversation here which Iām trying to have with you once you stop nitpicking on my personal back story (in an effort to dox me I assume because this is getting a little much, donāt you think?) is why are you so flabbergasted by this concept?
Are you familar with the idea that people can be paid less money than what they are worth? Do you know how capitalism works? Do you understand that there will be winners and losers and because we donāt live in a meritocracy, who gets to be winners and who gets to be losers largely comes from chance?
Your entire point seems to be on disproving my experience, I assume because then that would mean that in your head your argument is sound, that everyone is paid what they are worth, and that it was just a āskill issueā from someone with āvictim mentalityā (both your phrases) why someone wouldnāt be paid what they are worth.
Whatās your point?
Thatās a good thing I didnāt say they were making minimum wage. Look, throwing out some numbers here randomly (small numbers since itās going to be easier to calculate and I am a dipshit):
hypothetical minimum wage $10/hour. 40hr / week thatās $400/week. x 4 weeks in a month thatās $1600/month. After taxes (letās say half - whatās advised for sole proprietors anyway - for ease of math) thatās $800/month.
This person was making salary at their teaching job so thatās $X, but what Iām saying is that the web dev agency which hired them paid them $Y. I donāt know if $X == $Y and also was married with a husband with salary $Z, but I do know that $X + $Y + $Z <= COL for that area.
This tells me that both myself and them were having trouble making ends meet in the same area. That area was a relatively low cost of living area as well. Iām no economist but i would estimate that salary ranges (in the pre-remote work boom) in an area vary depending on the COL, meaning that low cost of living area salaries may be something like fulltime work at minimum wage for a year * 2 or maybe * 3, but HCOL area salaries may be something like fulltime work at minimum wage for a year * 5 or * 10. These opinions are my own and may be very wrong but they just seem to be what I have experienced at least back then. Now with remote work itās hard to say since high earners can move to rural areas and work for companies in HCOL areas.
I didnāt think Iād be talking to someone whoās going to try to pull apart my anonymized story to look for defects to try to win an argument. My previous answers reflect the person I once was prior to this conversation going down such a deep and personal rabbit hole.