• Steeve@lemmy.ca
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    1 year ago

    What a vague and silly comment, half the world’s top contributors to greenhouse gasses aren’t even capitalist countries. I get the fediverse isn’t a fan of capitalism, but you can’t just blanketly blame everything on it.

    • masquenox@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      The US military is the single largest polluter organisation on the planet - do tell me how we can’t blame capitalism again?

      And just for your information - that other gigantic capitalist country you falsely believe isn’t capitalist? Guess what? It’s capitalist.

      • Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        The US military is the world’s largest socialist organization. Universal health care, pensions, free college and job training, free housing…

        • masquenox@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          The US military is the world’s largest socialist organization.

          Oh, do please explain to us how worker ownership of the means of production works in the US military.

          Wait, don’t answer yet… I quickly have to get some popcorn. This is going to be good.

            • masquenox@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              Taxes

              Taxes? That’s how the working class owns the means of production in the US military?

              Am I talking to a damn chatbot here? It sure as hell sounds like it.

              • Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                Yeah, think of it like a corporation. Instead of shares, you have votes and taxes.

                Everyone in the military can vote on the actions of that military. Although, so can everyone not in the military. And the number of votes don’t correspond to how many shares you can buy, because it’s more equal than capitalism.

      • Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Also, non-capitalist countries tend to be low emitters because they are failed countries whose people live in miserable poverty.

      • Steeve@lemmy.ca
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        1 year ago

        China is the number one greenhouse gas contributor, Russia is near the top of the list as well. Fuck off tankies.

        • boonhet@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          If you think those 2 are communist countries, you’re stuck in the last century. Let me give you some news. The Soviet Union collapsed and gave way to a capitalist oligarchy. China realized that capitalism is profitable and brings them tons of money from the west. I have no idea why tankies still simp those countries as communist (wait, I do actually - because tankies never had any principles of their own, they just wanted to be anti-west).

          There is one country that needs to kickstart change for it to have any effect, it’s the US. Not only does it pollute the most per capita, it’s a huge market. My tiny ass country with fuel prices already being twice as much in the US, can raise fuel prices even more, but that won’t affect global demand. Americans no longer getting fuel for essentially free, would actually affect global demand.

          • Steeve@lemmy.ca
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            1 year ago

            Yes, of course, because political systems are binary and there’s only capitalism and communism lmao

            • boonhet@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              There’s plenty of systems that mix both, but Russia and China aren’t actually good examples. They’re pretty capitalist.

              If you want a better example of mixing capitalism with socialism, you can take a look at something like the Nordic countries, where there are tons of social services and safety nets, but there’s still a very strong (just regulated) free market.

              • vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org
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                1 year ago

                There’s plenty of systems that mix both, but Russia and China aren’t actually good examples. They’re pretty capitalist.

                State companies and state-connected companies own more than half of each one’s economy. More than in Nordic countries.

                • agarorn@feddit.de
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                  1 year ago

                  Do you belive that in a communist country everything is owned by the state? If so, I urge you to look up communism again.

                • boonhet@lemm.ee
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                  1 year ago

                  Because capitalism with state protection is not capitalism I guess.

                  In each, we’re talking about capitalism with the caveat that the owners of the country want a kickback too, and in return local capitalists are protected from foreign capitalists. Vladimir Putin owns Russia, the CCP owns China. In neither case does capital belong to “the people” as a whole.

                  • vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org
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                    1 year ago

                    Yes, it’s not. I mean, for Marxists it is, because Marx describes something similar specifically to XIX century Germany with state-supported enormous trusts, influential aristocracy, and so on. Which is for obvious reason of living there, just not very relevant, because real economists use the term differently.

                    In neither case does capital belong to “the people” as a whole.

                    Well, CCP is not different from CPSU in this case.

              • Steeve@lemmy.ca
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                1 year ago

                Seems a bit silly to decide that “capitalism” is the majority contributor to climate change when the country that produces the most greenhouse gases is only “pretty capitalist” doesn’t it? If capitalism is the major contributor, why don’t more capitalist country produce more greenhouse gases?

                I never set out to argue that capitalism doesn’t exist in countries that aren’t primarily capitalist.

                • 133arc585@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  Seems a bit silly to decide that “capitalism” is the majority contributor to climate change when the country that produces the most greenhouse gases is only “pretty capitalist” doesn’t it? If capitalism is the major contributor, why don’t more capitalist country produce more greenhouse gases?

                  That’s not necessarily the case. The pollution comes from where manufacturing is, not necessarily where consumption is. The demand is coming from capitalist countries.

                  Edit: To account for this, we can look at per-capita consumption-based emissions (thanks to @boonhet@lemm.ee for the data link).

                • boonhet@lemm.ee
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                  1 year ago

                  The country that produces the most greenhouse gases is doing so to satisfy the demands of private industry that’s producing goods for private profit. What part of that is not capitalism?

                  Also the country that produces the most per capita, is arguably the most capitalist country, the USA.

                  • 133arc585@lemmy.ml
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                    1 year ago

                    While I agree that per capita emissions is a useful metric, perhaps even more useful than raw emissions numbers, where are you getting that the USA has the highest production per capita?

                    This table shows data from 2018 so things change, but the per capita emissions would have had to double in five years to put the USA on top.

                    If you look at the non-per capita numbers, the USA is the second largest emitter behind China (using data from 2018).

        • masquenox@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          China is the number one

          Sooo… a capitalist state?

          Russia is near the top

          Sooo… another capitalist state?

          Fuck off tankies.

          You don’t know what a tankie is, do you?

          I knew it was a bad day when we allowed liberals access to that word.

            • masquenox@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              You walked blindly into this argument with absolutely zero understanding of the subject matter at hand, didn’t you?

              • Steeve@lemmy.ca
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                1 year ago

                Users are attributing climate change to “capitalism” with no evidence or reasoning to back it up. You’ve made assertions that countries that political experts don’t consider primarily capitalist countries are actually capitalist countries with no evidence to back them up. I don’t have to waste my time disproving your flaky nonsense, calling it out is good enough for me.

                And what part of this conversation makes you feel like the intelligent subject matter expert here? The part where you said liberals shouldn’t use certain words? Keep it up bud, appreciate you helping me decide which communities to filter out here.

                • masquenox@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  Users are attributing climate change to “capitalism”

                  Lol! It’s aliens, right? Climate change is caused by aliens? Is that your angle here?

                  I don’t have to waste my time

                  I agree… you don’t have to flail blindly and ignorantly because you don’t have a clue what you are talking about. You can get a clue any time you feel like.

                  • Steeve@lemmy.ca
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                    1 year ago

                    Yes of course, the only two super specific variables that exist, capitalism and aliens.

                    Would you waste your time talking to you?

                • albigu@lemmygrad.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  Users are attributing climate change to “capitalism” with no evidence or reasoning to back it up.

                  Have one (very liberal capitalist) brief source presenting some evidence to how capitalism is to blame. Then have a very short summary write-up on how China has been the world leader in combating climate change. Happy?

            • ghost_laptop@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              Do you think a tankie would say China is a capitalist nation? Liberalism really is worse than brain cancer. They are either an anarchist or some other shit, you just see the names of the enemies of the empire and scream, you poor ignorant Gringo.

                • Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social
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                  1 year ago

                  Kbin needs a way to collapse comment chains bc I’m trying to get past this bullshit and back to where the adults are talking

        • FluffyPotato@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Those 2 are literally capitalist countries. Also tankies are the ones who commonly say China is not capitalist.

              • Steeve@lemmy.ca
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                1 year ago

                What makes me think that two countries that have never identified as capitalist and have never been identified as capitalist anywhere except for this crazy ass community where you just go ahead and label anything you don’t like simply as “capitalism”? Oh I don’t know, just a hunch I guess!

                • Aurenkin@sh.itjust.works
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                  1 year ago

                  Well if you think ‘because they say so’ is reason enough there’s not really any further to go here I don’t think. I was hoping you’d have a more interesting answer about how the economy is structured or how resources are distributed. It looks more like an authoritarian flavour of capitalism to me but I’m no politics expert so I only have a layman’s view, more than happy to be corrected.

                  • Steeve@lemmy.ca
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                    1 year ago

                    Dude, the reason you think they’re capitalist is because someone on Lemmy said so, I’m not going to put effort into correcting something that didn’t have evidence behind it to begin with. I’m not going to sit here and try to prove a negative to correct your layman’s view, that’s not how conversation works.

                • masquenox@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  What makes me think that two countries that have never identified as capitalist

                  The DPRK “identifies” as “democratic” - so by your logic you should just swallow that hook, line and sinker, too, eh?

                  have never been identified as capitalist anywhere except

                  Oh, boy… are you in for a surprise - Lenin himself dubbed the fledgling USSR as “state capitalist”.

                  Nothing new about it, Clyde.

                  Every one of your arguments have been blown out of the water with next-to zero effort… and yet you still pretend you’re in the game.

        • albigu@lemmygrad.ml
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          1 year ago

          The United States has double China’s emissions per capita, and China actually is the world leader in the production of sustainable development products like solar panels even though the USA had a 150 year head start in its industrialisation. Despite whatever criticisms you may have against China, looking only at total emissions is definitely misleading. China’s renewable power has gone up fivefold in the past 15 years in absolute numbers and double in percentage of total production. The USA hasn’t even been building hydro dams since the 80s, while China has built some 15 in the past 20 years. Since one is explicitly the most capitalist country and the other is “”“capitalist actually”“”, I think it is fair to say that capitalism has a negative correlation with fighting climate change.

          Though I have no idea why you included the Russian Federation there, since it is a capitalist oligarchy created by and modelled after the USA. Do you believe that Russia is communist by any chance?

    • Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      Just as there are hordes of idiots on the right who call anything they don’t like “socialism”, there are a few idiots - primarily teenagers - on the left who call anything they don’t like “capitalism”.

      After the supreme court invalidated Roe v Wade, I attended a rally. I walked away when one of the speakers started shouting “We know what the real problem is…capitalism!” and all the university kids started cheering.

      I love the enthusiasm and your heart’s in the right place but y’all are dumber than a bag of bowling balls.