I am not targeting any group, race or religion or whatever, just an observation why does it seem that freedom of speech appears to invoke an image of a defence to be an asshole?
I get it, free to speak your mind and all and sometimes hard truths need to be said that but is the concept so out of whack that people have less empathy for others that they don’t agree with that they antagonise another to the point of disrespecting the right to dignity?
It seems like humanity is hard wired for conflict and if it isn’t actively trying to kill itself it seems to find an outlet for violence some way somehow. Maybe it is social conditioning or just some primal urge that makes humans human.
I don’t even know where else I could ask it, and it seems kind of stupid to think about so… have at thee
GenX lefty here.
I grew up with freedom of speech (the overall ideal, not the US legal concept) being a non-negotiable, axiomatic thing.
Every bit of social progress the world has seen, came about by loudly and obnoxiously challenging accepted norms, and refusing to sit down and shut up. Civil rights, worker’s rights, women’s rights, gay rights, trans rights and a whole bunch more - all of them only advanced by brave people getting up on their hind legs and speaking up for them, even though it was considered an affront to common decency, even an abomination.
For a bunch of overprivileged idiots to try and pull the ladder up behind them because their comfort is offended… really fucking bothers me.
I promise, I absolutely guaranfuckingtee that every person alive today will one day be on the wrong side of history; there are norms in society that our descendants (should humanity survive long enough for us to have any) will be utterly disgusted with all of us; and we would be just as disgusted by them. The shiny GenZ hope-of-the-world darlings of today will be the contempible boomers of 60 years from now, that’s just how history works. You can’t stop that from happening; the best you can do is increase social flexibility and mobility so they don’t remain totally rooted in the norms of their youth.
The absolute unmitigated gall of people today to imagine that no, unlike all that came before them, they have the right of it, that their accepted norms must be coddled and protected from any that might dare challenge them, that social change can stop right here… fuck no, fuck that, fuck them, fuck the entire concept.
You don’t disable progress, you mustn’t hobble change. And speech that offends us is the only way you get change, pretty much by definition.
Once you silence offensive speech (of whatever form), you’re locking in the status quo, and ironically that’s the most conservative thing you can ever do. Even if you believe that you and your team will never censor genuine activism, once you enable shutting-people-up as an option, you hand an absolutely terrifying weapon to the assholes that take power next time you lose the election.
Now I will grudgingly concede that the landscape has changed, that the coming of the information age has shifted the way everything works, that the mechanisms and underlying rules are changing, and that the principles of absolute freedom of speech that made sense in my youth no longer get you the same results. The internet is a big scary machine, and its ability to create filter bubbles and viral trends and cliques and misinformation and just general ugh… is pretty damn terrifying. Just look at the damn antivaxers, climate change deniers, the rampant and increasing transphobia, the fascist assholes getting their hooks in everywhere - clearly the marketplace of ideas is a mob town now, and we can’t just expect it to run itself.
How do we fix it? I don’t fucking know. Both sides seem to lead some pretty terrible places - is there a middle path somewhere? How do we trust anyone to steer it?
I agree on a lot of points, although it seems I have a more pacifist outlook while you have a more active outlook which if I am honest does more for progress.
I see freedom of speech - in the general sense - as a means to be able to express yourself and your opinions and I feel that if people could express that without outright spreading a feeling of hatred and rage then I feel pretty much anything goes within reason. As even innocuous well meaning ideas can lead to dangerous outcomes.
That doesn’t mean people should expect the status quo, but sometimes I look at chimps and their “gang wars” and think we aren’t that much different sometimes.
For reference: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War
We are primed to respond most strongly with hatred and rage… perhaps some deep primitive instinct and that gets taken advantage of.
Humans nature seems to be a violent one and if I look at history it is unfortunately violence that seems to be the most effective means to get through our thick human psyche to advance. Ancient Egypt, Alexander’s Legacy, Rome’s rise and fall, The Crusades, French Revolution, British Empire, American Independence, The World Wars.
We are forever doomed to repeat history it seems until history can no longer repeat
It is like humanity must experience great suffering and that suffering must reach a tipping point before we as a collective species change
What the next big tipping point will be that forces a change, if we last that long, I don’t know as well
Because insuring free speech includes everyone and the most strident assholes believe themselves to have the right to speak first and as loudly as possible.
It doesn’t mean we don’t discount their bullshit and laugh at them, it just means they are the loudest and quickest.Just to be clear, if they do somehow bring up a valid point, it is not dismissed out of hand like the obvious bullshit is.
It doesn’t seem enough anymore. I used to be a free speech absolutist: following the soap box analogy, I don’t have to listen to whatever filth you’re spewing, I can point and laugh, I might no longer be interested in being friendly. That’s all logically complete: say what you want but no one has to listen, and you’re not free of the consequences.
However online communities have taken this to a whole new level, and free speech can become actively harmful to others and to society. Now we get to the other common analogy “but you can’t yell FIRE in a crowded theater”. Just like that example, you have no right to a platform that endangers others. Unfortunately the danger is more indirect, so it’s not an exact analogy, and it’s not clear where to draw the line
The problem you’re talking about is real, but I don’t think restricting free speech is the answer.
Well said.
It’s very simple. It’s because people falsely mistake freedom of speech for freedom from consequence.
In other words, you have the right to be an asshole, but if you do it too much, others can invoke their right be assholes right back to you.
People constantly thinking they can say what they want until they encounter that person that’s willing to get arrested for assault when the wrong thing is said to them. That’s freedom
Or arrested for saying free stuff that calls for harm of other people. Your freedom ends where someone elses freedom starts vice versa. If you harm someone you are no longer protected
Because assholes commonly don’t understand “free speech” doesn’t also mean “free of consequences.” They don’t think they should have consequences. They don’t actually care about free speech.
That’s part of the problem with online speech: you spew your rhetoric out to the world, with no direct consequences. We need to develop an online equivalent to throwing tomatoes.
Actually, I don’t know what to think of gullible people. In the village, there’s only so much danger, plus people can take them aside and tell them not to be dumb. But what of the idiots sitting home on Facebook in an echo chamber of madness, getting angrier and angrier?
The simple answer is they’re attempting to insulate themselves from consequence or challenge.
Free speech doesn’t work like that (it only protects you from gov’t retaliation, not other private citizens), but it doesn’t stop them from trying because as some of the responses here exemplify, people will fall for it and let them continue saying whatever, regardless of whether it’s true or harmful to the vulnerable.
“The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one’s time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.”. ― H.L. Mencken
It’s a combination of ignorance and entitlement. They think free speech means freedom from consequence and entitlement to a platform and/or audience. That’s why they get mad and claim it’s censorship when they’re banned for breaking rules etc.
Also they only care about their freedom of speech, despite their claims to the contrary.
People seems to be under the impression that freedom of speech means freedom from consequences, that you’re free to spout all sorts of hateful nonsense and not have to deal with the hurt they cause.
Because people don’t grasp what “free speech” means, at least in the US context.
Freedom of speech (expression) protects one against government interference with expression. The US government can’t stop you from saying bigoted, racist, or sexist things because you have the freedom to express yourself.
But.
Freedom of speech doesn’t require anyone to offer you a platform to share your views, nor does it mandate an audience. If your views are unpopular, freedom of speech doesn’t prevent others from denying you business or employment generally either; the ol’ “consequences of your actions” principle.
Bad actors want the right, a mandated platform, and no consequences for being shitty. They get upset when they find out that they’re entitled to neither a platform nor protection from consequence.
Because freedom of speech doesn’t mean I have to listen to you or let ignorance slide as a valid take. It only protects you from the government and not my calling out nonsense
Because when the best thing that can be said about what you’re saying is “it’s not literally illegal to say it”, you’re probably scraping the bottom of the barrel with respect to the content of your words.
It’s also often that if people are reduced to using it as an argument, they’ve already been told to shut up, and that no one in their company wants to hear what they have to say. Kind people who say disagreeable things are usually open to hearing about why people are disagreeing, or having feelings about what is said. So, that leaves the unkind assholes insisting they have a right to an audience.
Because literally their only excuse for what they’re saying is that the government can’t legally stop them from saying it
None of the free speech crowd actually understand what the first amendment means. So they claim that boycotting an artist for saying some racist shit is denying them their freedom of speech. These turds need to take a civics class.
I am not an American, but reading your Constitution… with respect, I feel like your Founding Fathers would have many issues with how your Country is currently run, from what I have seen and read in the media
People only invoke the feelings of the founders when they either don’t have a stronger argument or are trying to appeal to conservatives. It’s basically religious interpretation at this point - mostly used to manipulate people who don’t know better.
It’s actually an off shoot of a logical fallacy called “argumentum ad antiquitatem” which is just an appeal to tradition or the past as being correct because it’s old basically. Same thing trying to map the founding fathers thoughts and feelings on modern norms and mores
Technically it is, but thats more about difference between free speech and 1a.
There’s usually no need to invoke “freedom of speech” when the things you’re saying are popular and nobody is offended by it.
But there is also no need to invoke “freedom of speech” if the things you’re saying are unpopular and many people are offended by it… unless the government is trying to stop you from expressing those things. If people are asking the bouncer to chuck somebody out of the bar, that person might as well invoke the third amendment against quartering soldiers in their house because that’s exactly as irrelevant to the situation as the first.
There comes a point when something becomes a common utility, and should be treated as such. Like electricity for example. Question becomes, where do you draw the line?
I wish people didn’t confuse the right to do something with the necessity to go do it. I fully support people’s right to be removeds, but I honestly don’t understand why anyone would want to be an removed
Cuz whats abhorent to one only makes sense to others. For me, I think abortion is murdering babies. To others, unborn babies don’t have rights.
On many internet communities, Im a REMOVED but I truly believe what I say.
