- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
More than 200 Substack authors asked the platform to explain why it’s “platforming and monetizing Nazis,” and now they have an answer straight from co-founder Hamish McKenzie:
I just want to make it clear that we don’t like Nazis either—we wish no-one held those views. But some people do hold those and other extreme views. Given that, we don’t think that censorship (including through demonetizing publications) makes the problem go away—in fact, it makes it worse.
While McKenzie offers no evidence to back these ideas, this tracks with the company’s previous stance on taking a hands-off approach to moderation. In April, Substack CEO Chris Best appeared on the Decoder podcast and refused to answer moderation questions. “We’re not going to get into specific ‘would you or won’t you’ content moderation questions” over the issue of overt racism being published on the platform, Best said. McKenzie followed up later with a similar statement to the one today, saying “we don’t like or condone bigotry in any form.”
I… what?
Let me ask you a question. Do you like Nazis? Do you want their ideas to spread, or should they be defeated and dwindle away in the court of public opinion over time?
I’m gonna assume it’s the latter. My feeling is that the most effective way to get that done is to let them take part in the exchange of ideas in the public sphere, as opposed to driving them underground. Their ideas are so abhorrent that giving them a good public airing is the quickest way to turn people against them and make sure people know who they are. Would you like me to search for support from experts on extremism on that? Maybe I will learn that I am wrong in this, but that’s a big part of what’s at the root of why I’m saying what I’m saying.
Whether or not they should be allowed in the public sphere, and I disagree that letting someone talk is more effective than not letting them talk, why are you okay with Substack making money from Nazi content?
Because that’s the way of allowing them in the public sphere. I think that’s the core of our disagreement. Simple business operations that aren’t connected with allowing an extremist “political” viewpoint in the public sphere or not, I don’t feel the same way about. That’s why I’m fine with the government combating organized misinformation, or Substack banning porn, or Google banning advertising by Nazis. Once someone tries to publish a newsletter with their abhorrent views, and someone else says “whoa whoa whoa you’re not allowed to even say that,” then I object to that, whether that “abhorrent” view is a Nazi or a sex worker or a BLM protestor. That’s the other big part at the root of what I’m saying – different people have different definitions of what’s “abhorrent,” and you’re on some people’s lists the same way Nazis are on yours.
Sorry, you’re saying that private companies should not only be forced to have Nazis on their servers but should be forced to profit from their content otherwise Nazis are not in the public sphere and thus people will not know about what Nazis believe and therefore… something?
Because as far as I can tell, not allowing Nazi content in Germany hasn’t been an issue.
When did I say anything about forcing? The first amendment applies to the government only. Any company can do what they like, and I might have my opinion on it, but that doesn’t mean I think anyone should have to have Nazis if they don’t want to. I’m just saying what is my take on what the right thing to do is.
It sounds like you’re the one advocating for Substack to have to operate their private servers in a fashion that they clearly don’t want to do. Not saying this is you, but I’ve seen other (presumably confused) people in this thread advocating for talking to Substack’s “advertisers” to pressure them into banning the Nazis, and talking to Stripe about what kind of content Substack is allowing, to try to coerce Substack into banning the Nazis. I’m strongly against that, whether it comes from the “pro-free-speech” crowd or the anti-Nazi crowd.
Except, of course, for that one time. That one time it was a pretty big issue.
That’s not purely a flip answer. As far back ago as the business plot, and certainly all the way through the heyday of the KKK, there have been fascist and extremist elements in the USA. There was an American Nazi party. The US always had strong protections (in theory and mostly in practice) for those abhorrent views in the public sphere, whereas in Germany it’s legal for the current government to ban Nazis, or for the Nazi government to ban communists.
Why, then, did the fascists take over in Germany and not the US? If allowing Nazi speech is so dangerous and banning it is such a powerful tool against it?
(Edit: phrasing)
So you’re directly saying that’s what it sounds like I’m doing, but you’re not saying it’s me?
That one time before anything relating to the Nazis was banned in Germany? What’s your point?
I’m saying that you’re saying Substack shouldn’t be letting Nazis on their servers, and when they issue a detailed statement explaining why they’re doing that, you object to it. I never said any company should change their policy away from the policy they want to have, and you have, but you’re accusing me of trying to “force” a private company to change their policy.
There are other people in the thread who are saying “we” should start trying to coerce Substack into banning the Nazis. As far as I know, that’s not you, so I didn’t accuse you of it, but I did bring it up as an example of something else that I object to even more strongly.
My point is, hateful political speech can be banned in Germany. That was true before the Nazis. And yet, they came to power. Hateful political speech can’t be banned in the US, and yet fascists didn’t come to power here (or… not as thoroughly as it did in Germany, at least). I listed some examples from way before WW2. Does my thinking not make sense here? You don’t have to agree or anything, just trying to lay out another reason behind why I think that way.
I have blatantly told you already that I am not saying that. So now you are deliberately lying.
Bullshit. Absolute and utter bullshit. So no, your bullshit does not make sense.
What?
I’m really not trying to get into anything heated with you. I’m not the enemy of you or anything, regardless if you’re getting irritated at the conversation.
I don’t really want to play some kind of gotcha game of going back through your comments, but I want to defend myself against you saying I’m deliberately lying. You told me, for example, “you are spending a lot of time defending Substack’s right to make money from Nazis”. It’s hard for me to take that any way than that you wouldn’t defend Substack’s right to make money from Nazis… i.e. that you object to them making money from Nazis, you think they shouldn’t be allowed to monetize Nazis if they want to. Yes, I think they have that right, if they want to.
If this is, again, me being fuzzy on the difference between banning versus monetizing, then I apologize again. Can you just clarify exactly what you mean? Do you think for example that it’s okay if Substack hosts Nazi content, but doesn’t monetize it? If you tell me exactly what you think I can be careful to respect it and not misrepresent you.
What?
What protection was there for unpopular political speech in Germany before the war? I know the Nazis banned communists, in a way that the US wasn’t able to ban socialists and communists despite wanting to, before the war. Is that not an example? Can you explain a little more instead of just cursing at me? Again, I’m not trying to get heated at you. If you just get mad and start cursing at me instead of having some kind of rational disagreement I’ll go do something else.