Itās also telling when people frame any and all discussion around anything LGBT+ as ātransphobicā and ātrying to kill trans peopleā.
The current gender/trans ideology isnāt just scientific fact that has to be followed and believed. People should be allowed to disagree and question it without being censored and banned.
That seems to be the point the creator is making - they didnāt make it to be a circle jerking safe space for only the far left āprogressivesā. They made it for everyone to be able to talk about their beliefs without being censored and banned, but one ideological group absolutely doesnāt want that.
It is scientific fact; at least every major medical organization in the US is in total agreement about what you refer to as āgender ideology,ā and what we call the existence of trans people.
āJust asking questionsā about it is as disingenuous and false as ājust asking questionsā about evolution. If you truly believe trans people exist and deserve to be respected you wouldnāt feel the need to ask these questions.
But yes, the founder chose anti-trans concerns above trans concerns. LGBT people will leave and the platform will become a conservative circlejerk. You have that part right at least.
Youāve really jumped deep into things by assuming what the person youāre responding to means isnāt scientific fact is the actual existence of trans people. They could, but they were woefully vague.
Most people Iāve interacted with who have misgivings are more focused on things like the insistence that there are no differences between afab and amab bodies, and therefore trans women athletes should be allowed to compete against afab athletes.
Thatās a currently āunallowed to challengeā topic that pretty much immediately gets you labelled transphobic, but hereās the rub: female athletes doping with testosterone to achieve higher muscle mass is something that is banned from sports competitions, so why does it matter whether it was artificially obtained via pill or naturally by the fact that they had years of body and muscle development as male before transistioning?
Thereās no good solution to this problem, but the fact that anyone who brings it up gets labelled as transphobic is ridiculous. Itās not inherently denying trans people anything to discuss it (that has more to do with the person discussing it than the topic itself). For me itās an attempt to ensure that all female athletes afab trans or other are on an even playing field, ideally so people have less excuse to easily dismiss trans athlete achievements.
The current gender/trans ideology isnāt just scientific fact that has to be followed and believed.
I know no person interested in trans liberation that also talks about āgender/trans ideology.ā
I find sports misgivings a red herring with regards to trans liberation. To me, it feels like asking someone to be less racist, and hearing them respond āwell what about Black people in sports? What about white athletesā feelings? How do we determine if an athlete is white enough to compete against other whites?ā The entire notion is wrong-headed to begin with. Yes, if we include trans people in sports, sometimes they might win. Whatās so bad about trans people winning at sports?
In any case, clearly the person I was responding to was not talking about this.
Here is the thing when it comes to sports, there are usually two main divisions in most sports, the best of the best league, and the women league. In most sports there is technically no rule against women playing in the best of the best leagues, but they are just at so much of a disadvantage it is almost unheard of for them to be able to compete at that level. The only reason that women only sports exist is to allow people with that biological disadvantage to compete professionally against others with the same disadvantage. Itās a league thatās sole purpose is to allow women to be competitive against other women because the men are just so much better.
It might sound like Iām bashing womenās sports, but Iām not. Iām glad women have an avenue to compete at pro levels, because without women only sports they would not.
I have no problem with anybody trying to compete in the best of the best league, men, women, trans, black, white, etc. But when it comes to leagues specifically limited to give those in the league a fair competition, we shouldnāt be opening that up to those who donāt have the disadvantage that defines the league. This applies to women leagues, the special Olympics, and other limited leagues.
I know this, I just donāt think it matters. Our a priori assumption must be trans people should be included everywhere as much as possible, just like Black people or Jewish people. Fairness will adjust to our expectations, so everything will feel fine in the end, just as it did when we allowed other minorities to compete in leagues they were formerly barred from.
How can it not matter? You have a sport built around the idea of fair competition to a genetic physical weakness, and you think we should just throw that all away? Iām not sure why you are bringing race and nationality into this discussion, thatās never been a race based disadvantage that we decided we needed to design sports around.
Our a priori assumption must be trans people should be included everywhere as much as possible,
I agree, but I think sports falls under ānot possibleā because they donāt meet the requirements for the womenās league. I have no problem with a trans league, or they are more than welcome to compete in the best of the best league. I donāt think they should be competing in womenās sports, itās unfair to all biological women athletes who compete against other biological women athletes.
And if you want to compare it to race, where the idea of a race segregated sport would be super controversial, letās just get rid of womenās sports all together. Women are equal to men, right? They can do anything a man can do, right? What are we pretending women arenāt equal by putting them in their own sports leagues? Letās just get rid of all womenās sports, let them compete directly with the men, and may the best win.
Iām fine sorting people by weight classes or hormone levels. But gender is not a useful way to do that and hasnāt been for years. The Olympics, for example, tests your hormone levels and not what your natal sex was or what your genitals look like.
But ultimately I just donāt think sports matters more than peoplesā rights. So if we have to abolish gendered sports, especially below the ultra-professional level, Iām fine with that.
And yes, people did indeed claim certain races had advantages in sports and pointed to science about muscle density to support their theories. They would consider themselves well-justified by Black people dominating certain sports. It is the same with trans athletes.
But gender is not a useful way to do that and hasnāt been for years.
So you are for getting rid of womenās sports, special Olympics, and everything in that realm and just letting everyone compete as people of the human race?
But ultimately I just donāt think sports matters more than peoplesā rights.
What rights? There is no right to compete in stuff you are not eligible for.
So if we have to abolish gendered sports, especially below the ultra-professional level, Iām fine with that.
So you are fine with women essentially never being competitive in sports? Personally I think itās great they have their own league, because otherwise there wouldnāt really be women in sports.
And yes, people did indeed claim certain races had advantages in sports and pointed to science about muscle density to support their theories. They would consider themselves well-justified by Black people dominating certain sports. It is the same with trans athletes.
Except that they are competing in the open to everyone category, even if some races had an advantage, thatās legal in an open to everyone category. Womenās sports are not open to everyone, only to biological females who donāt take performance enhancing substances. Again, if you want to essentially remove women from sports by pretending biological males and females are the same, thatās your grave to dig.
Race isnāt the same as gender, Iām hoping you realize that. In todayās world, gender is more a state of mind than anything else, race is not. I can choose to become the opposite gender, I canāt choose to be black as a white person.
If trans athletes want to compete in sports, compete in the open to everyone league, donāt try to compete in leagues you donāt qualify for. Womenās sports, if they are to still exist, are for biological and non testosterone taking females only.
The NFL isnāt a male league for example - itās an open league. How many women have ever even made it to the tryout stage? One. A kicker. She didnāt come close to making even a training squad.
Sam Kerr, the best womenās soccer player on earth, wouldnāt even get close to making a menās pro team. The world beating womenās USA team, winners of the past 2 world cups, got annihilated by an under 15s boys team.
The issue isnāt just that they might win, itās that they will naturally dominate in competitions where biological makeup matters.
If you donāt see how thatās not fair I donāt know what to tell you. There are hard rules in biology that donāt mesh with gender identity politics, and thereās no way around that.
Lots of people were worried about Black people dominating certain sports. And, as it turns out, Black people do dominate certain sports. Is that unfair to white people?
No. People are just different. Fairness adjusts and we get over it.
How do biological women adapt to someone like Lia Thomas? Are they just going to magically all just grow another foot in height and increase their bone density and muscle mass to levels that women canāt naturally get?
Youāre right, itās not vague at all - itās not denying trans people exist in any way. Trans people existing isnāt an ideology, so questioning the current trans and gender ideology has nothing to do with trans people existing or not. Youāre jumping to conclusions because you want to dismiss any opinion you donāt agree with, and currently the āthatās transphobic!ā line is basically a get out of jail free card in that way. Just call someone transphobic and get them banned so you donāt have to have your opinion challenged, create that echo chamber you want so badly.
Your response to the sports issue of āwhatās so wrong with trans women winning womenās sporting eventsā says it all. āWho cares about biological women, the feelings of trans women matter more.ā
Trans women can compete with men. If there is no physical or biological advantage for males then why do they need to compete with the women? They can compete with the men and should do just fine.
Lia Thomas is all that needs to be pointed out for why your ideology here is wrong. 500+ ranked manā¦ā¦instantly #1 ranked woman. Breaks all the womenās records. Where are the trans men swimmers dominating the menās division in swimming? Or in track and field? Cycling? Anywhere at all?!
No one denies trans people exist, but this is how the āprogressivesā that want males competing with females in sport and using female-only services frame any and all questioning of their ideology and motives.
If you truly believe trans people exist and deserve to be respected you wouldnāt feel the need to ask these questions.
I donāt agree. I have A LOT of questions about gender identity to which I canāt hypothesize answers because as a cis/het person I have no idea what it means and what it feels like being transgender, and I grew up in a time and a place where nobody ever talked about gender identity. The only way I can educate myself is by asking questions. Now I know a lot of people in the LGBTQ community are kinda fed up answering this kind of questions, and with good reason (cf. the ājust asking questionsā posture of anti-trans people). But some of us are being honest at just asking questions.
Those arenāt the kinds of questions the OP was talking about; their dogwhistle about ātrans/gender ideology isnāt scientific factā shows that they are indeed the kind of anti-trans person who is ājust asking questionsā to harass trans people.
If you have legitimate questions there are many excellent resources on the Internet and even in Lemmy itself where LGBTQ people will be happy to chat with you, if you approach them in a respectful manner :)
Gender ideology is not scientific fact. Gender as it is now know has literally no basis in science. Sex is biological reality. Gender is now a āfeelingā.
Thatās not āscientific factā. For something to be scientific fact it has to have scientific facts supporting it.
From that article:
In the study of human subjects, the term gender should be used to refer to a personās self-representation as male or female, or how that person is responded to by social institutions on the basis of the individualās gender presentation.
āself representationā is how you feel. Itās a feeling. Thatās not scientific fact. Going āwe acknowledge that society now treats gender as a new thing separate to sexā isnāt the same as it being a scientifically proven fact.
Iām really not seeing the logic here, so called āfeelingsā are scientific facts and we do studies on them all the time. Is hunger not a feeling? Same thing with self-representation. Those arenāt nebulous concepts. Those are well-established scientific facts. Gender is an important part of self-representation and from all indications, one people have very little control over.
Thatās disingenuous and your own link doesnāt support what you are saying. The link demonstrates that gender to refer to self-identity is both recent and an artificial distinction. The science behind transgenderism is far from settled as much as people would like it to be. We donāt even know what causes it.
Oh noā¦ it does say exactly that and the science is indeed settled. Thereās no āartificial distinction;ā science says gender and sex are indeed different. Unless of course you can link a reputable scientific organization that disagrees with that overwhelming consensus?
We donāt know what causes most cancers either. That doesnāt mean they canāt be studied scientifically.
Your own link say says that gender is a social construct now. Theyāre saying that there is literally no science involved, there is no basis in scientific fact there.
I didnāt say it shouldnāt be scientifically studied. It definitely should be, especially the extremely high rates of comorbid mental illnesses in trans/non-binary people.
The article you linked states that gender is now commonly considered a social construct rather than tied to your biological sex. They are making the distinction so that there is no confusion when reading their papers.
The science is not settled, they are conceding that the common use of the term now has a different meaning than it did in the past.
Why do you guys always always jump straight to āyouāre trying to deny trans people existā? No one is saying trans people donāt exist. people are, however, opposed to people telling preschoolers that if they like stereotypical opposite sex things that theyāre trans and should choose a new name and wear the other genders stereotypical clothes. Itās indoctrination.
If a kid still believes in Santa clause, telling them theyāre trans and giving them praise and letting them choose their own name etc is forcing your ideology on them. They donāt know any better. All they know is an adult is telling them something so it must be true. Again - they believe in Santa clause and the tooth fairy. They donāt have the mental capacity to understand these things. They donāt have the mental capacity to be making permanent life altering decisions.
This whole ājust asking questionsā bullshit is just a way the āprogressivesā try to weaponise anyone questioning their beliefs and ideologies.
If lgbtq people canāt stand seeing people have different opinions to them then they should leave. They shouldnāt be trying to get everyone else banned.
This is totally nonsense. No one is āindoctrinatingā childrenā¦ except those who claim that children canāt be trans. I would encourage you to swallow your pride and your preconceived notions and actually talk to trans people, many of whom report knowing exactly who they were at the first age they were aware of gender.
Anyway, the rest of your point is basically hateful bullshit. If you canāt deal with LGBT people and our opinions, youāre the one that should get out. We frankly donāt need you.
No one is āindoctrinatingā childrenā¦ except those who claim that children canāt be trans.
When people say this they mean that children donāt have the mental capacity to make that life changing decision. Again - kids believe in santa clause, the easter bunny, and the tooth fairy. They are extremely easily influenced and will believe what their parents tell them to a fault. If you tell a kid theyāre trans because they like the colour pink as a boy or blue as a girl, theyāre gonna believe you. That is the indoctrination people are talking about.
Are there kids that actually have gender dysphoria? Sure. Theyāre the extreme minority of the kids that are currently trans though, because they donāt even understand gender let alone āgender identityā. Even teenagers arenāt mentally developed enough to be making life altering decisions, which is why we donāt let under 18 year olds get tattoos, drink, vote, etc. If you accept that these restrictions need to be in place for children, how can you be ok with giving them life altering drugs and surgeries?
Anyway, the rest of your point is basically hateful bullshit.
Sighā¦thereās the usual ātransphobicā type dismissal/attack used to try and stop any and all discussion of differing viewpoints.
If you canāt deal with LGBT people and our opinions, youāre the one that should get out. We frankly donāt need you.
I can deal with LGBT people, I have no issues with them at all as Iāve said many times. Iāve explained why I donāt, and what I do have problems with. Ironic that you say āWe frankly donāt need you.ā because if that were true you wouldnāt be constantly trying to force your beliefs on me.
Thatās the point OP was making when they said LGBT+ isnāt political. LGBT+ isnāt an ideology for people to share ābeliefsā about. It will exist whether or not you believe in it, and normalizing people who say I donāt believe in it is essentially denying the LGBT+ personās identity. Itās ok to say you donāt understand, or even like it, but to simply say āyouāre making up your gender identityā is wrong and harmful.
The current LGBTQ+ ideology is a political ideology though. Itās not just facts and itās not about āexistingā like people try to make it out to be.
The current trend of āa 3 year old boy that plays with barbies is trans so should be put on puberty blockersā is an ideology, same with ātrans women have no physical advantages over biological womenā, same with trying to teach 8 year olds about anal sex and masturbation. None of these things have anything to do with people āexistingā.
The ideology that says simply saying youāre a woman makes you a woman and therefore are entitled to women-only places and things like scholarships and awards is what most people are against. No one cares if a 25 year old biological male wants to put on a dress and wear makeup and call themself Jane. Most people will even play along with your new pronouns. People shouldnāt be forced to by law though, and thatās another of the big issues people have.
Tl;dr - being trans isnāt political. Pushing the current trans beliefs and ideologies like gender identity, self ID, and ātrans women are womenā is.
How are medically approved operations by doctors an ideology? As long as the parents and their doctors have identified an issue they need to address, and the procedure they decide on is safe, reversible, and is known to make the childās life happier, who are you and I to stop them?
Pushing the current trans beliefs and ideologies like gender identity, self ID, and ātrans women are womenā is.
Thatās conservatives making it political. Claiming your own gender identity is not political, itās a natural human behavior to self identify. Please explain how you can say trans people can exist while at the same time if they try to self-identity then theyāre being political? Thereās no āconservative geneā that prevents you from choosing your gender identity (i.e. Caitlyn Jenner). Just acknowledging transgenderism exists is completely apolitical. If you see it as āpushing gender identityā thatās your problem.
How are medically approved operations by doctors an ideology?
I didnāt once mention medically approved operations? If youāre talking about doing them on kids then thatās a whole other issue.
and the procedure they decide on is safe, reversible, and is known to make the childās life happier, who are you and I to stop them?
And here lies the problem - parents pushing their ideology on to their kids. Also what ātrans surgeriesā are āsafe and reversibleā? None. Cutting off your male genitalia is not reversible. A hysterectomy is not reversible. Cutting off your breasts is not reversible (though you can at least try and make up for it with breast implants). Puberty blockers are not fully reversible, and most countries are now acknowledging this. You simply cannot stunt someones physical (and mental) growth and have it just resume years later as if nothing has changed. There are zero long term studies on puberty blockers. There are however known long term issues with them.
itās a natural human behavior to self identify.
Not as a different gender/sex itās not. It has only become a thing very recently, where simply saying āIām a womanā now means youāre a woman, no questions asked.
Please explain how you can say trans people can exist while at the same time if they try to self-identity then theyāre being political?
Thatās not at all what I said. Pushing for being able to let āSelf IDā give you access to the opposite sexes spaces and sports and awards and other things is the political part. Trans people existing has nothing to do with that. The issues with self ID are that men who have literally done nothing to transition can now go in to womens events/spaces without question. A great example is the weightlifting competitions where gender Self ID was allowed, so a anti-self id man entered and just annihilated the competition as a protest to show how stupid it is. The only requirement for him to enter the womens competition was for him to tick a box saying heās a woman.
Transgender and gender ideology are different things. Transgender is āI am the other gender to what I was born asā. Gender ideology is āI can be whatever gender i want, whenever i want, and can change gender a thousand times during the day, and I should get all of the rights afforded to whichever sex/gender i call myself at the timeā. Theyāre not one and the same.
Indigenous peoples have acknowledged a āthird genderā aka non binary for centuries - way before colonization.
How can you say self identifying in regards to sex/gender is a recent ideology when itās been part of human history for centuries?
Sounds like bland, generic, thoughtless conservative nonsense to eliminate other perspectives (especially when you discount them as new despite existing for centuries)
How can you say self identifying in regards to sex/gender is a recent ideology when itās been part of human history for centuries?
It hasnāt though. People are now using absurd leaps to try and pretend that it has been around for centuries, but it hasnāt. Got some links to these āthird genderā stories?
I didnāt once mention medically approved operations? If youāre talking about doing them on kids then thatās a whole other issue.
No, I donāt approve of irreversible medical surgeries on people under age of 16, but thatās not a thing in any case. Itās in response to your comments about 3 year olds getting puberty blockers (which is also not a thing) in which case it is temporary, reversible, and typically starts at 8 (10+ for boys).
And here lies the problem - parents pushing their ideology on to their kids. Also what ātrans surgeriesā are āsafe and reversibleā? None. Cutting off your male genitalia is not reversible. A hysterectomy is not reversible
My child is sick, feeling depressed, I go to the doctor, they discuss possible issues, and through preset, clinical guidelines, they decide that treatment for gender dysmorphia is an option. Again, reversible, safe treatments like puberty blockers and therapy that help prevent children from self-harm and further confusion about their identify. Itās not like theyāre passing out puberty blockers like candies for funsies and doing this for fun.
Iām not even talking about transgender surgeries, which happens at 18+ of age.
itās a natural human behavior to self identify.
Not as a different gender/sex itās not. It has only become a thing very recently, where simply saying āIām a womanā now means youāre a woman, no questions asked.
Sayās who? If one wants another to call them by another thing, who are we to dispute that? Gender CAN be fluid. Your biological sex that you were born with hasnāt changed, itās their GENDER. Gender doesnāt have to match your sex. And transgenderism has been a thing since ancient times. Have you considered that maybe more people are coming āoutā recently because theyāre feeling safer to express themselves?
The issues with self ID are that men who have literally done nothing to transition can now go in to womens events/spaces without question. A great example is the weightlifting competitions where gender Self ID was allowed, so a anti-self id man entered and just annihilated the competition as a protest to show how stupid it is. The only requirement for him to enter the womens competition was for him to tick a box saying heās a woman.
There have been exactly 0 assaults by transgender women entering a public bathroom. And your concerns about a troll entering sports competitions is going to out-weight all of the self-harm and suicides committed by people suffering from unaddressed/repressed gender identity issues?
Gender ideology is āI can be whatever gender i want, whenever i want, and can change gender a thousand times during the day, and I should get all of the rights afforded to whichever sex/gender i call myself at the timeā.
Show me one time where that has happened and it has harmed someone else by doing it. And again, if they want to change their gender once or a thousand times, how is it any of your business? Besides sports competitions and bathrooms, I mean.
Having empowerment over their gender identity is an important part of being a transgender person, denying them that right is inhuman and cruel. Gender ideology, or whatever you want to call it, is simply (in my opinion) expressing a sense of safety and freedom to others that want to identify as something else from what they were born as. And believe it or not, this can happen whether you are conservative or liberal - it is absolutely a HUMAN desire, not a political one.
Look, I understand that if I call someone that looks and talk like a women a she, but wants to be called a man, thereās going to be confusion. But what do I lose out of my day if they simply said āsorry, Iām actually a heā and I respect that moving forward?
No, I donāt approve of irreversible medical surgeries on people under age of 16, but thatās not a thing in any case.
That thing that never happens yet still happens isnāt actually happening? lol Also why did you choose 16 as your cutoff? Theyāre still legally, physically, and mentally a child at 16.
in which case it is temporary, reversible, and typically starts at 8 (10+ for boys).
Not fully reversible, and the sooner your āsideā acknowledges this the better. Governments all over the world are recognising this now and are removing all mentions of āfully reversibleā from their documents and legislation, and many are now outlawing it altogether because there are literally no long term studies done to prove that they are reversible. The difference between 3 and 8 or 10 is completely irrelevant. A 8 year old has no better understanding of gender identity than a 3 year old, they lack the mental capacity for understanding this and they absolutely cannot understand the life long repercussions.
My child is sick, feeling depressed, I go to the doctor, they discuss possible issues, and through preset, clinical guidelines, they decide that treatment for gender dysmorphia is an option.
Sick? Gender dysphoria/dysmorphia doesnāt make anyone āsickā. Youāre also overlooking all of the places that hand out diagnoses and scripts for drugs after a literal 10 minute phone call, intentionally so most likely.
Iām not even talking about transgender surgeries, which happens at 18+ of age.
Apart from when they donāt, like how you yourself even said in this same post that youāre ok with it at 16 years of age. What is it, 18 or 16?
If one wants another to call them by another thing, who are we to dispute that?
Again, this is the problem - you can call yourself whatever you want. I. Donāt. Care. Simply calling yourself a woman however should not mean that you now have access to womenās sports and women only safe spaces like gyms and doctors etc.
There have been exactly 0 assaults by transgender women entering a public bathroom.
Come on mate, you donāt even believe these lies.
And your concerns about a troll entering sports competition is going to out-weight all of the self-harm and suicides committed by people suffering from unaddressed gender identity issues?
The fact that even post gender affirming surgery the suicide rate doesnāt decrease among transgender people says all that needs to be said. Youāre basically saying ālet womens sports be taken over by biological males because if you donāt the transgender people will kill themselvesā. I believe this is what you guys call āgaslightingā?
Show me one time where that has happened and it has harmed someone else by doing it.
I literally just did with the weightlifting example. A woman lost out on a prize because a man chose to be a woman so he could enter the competition. Self ID lets that happen. He did it to stop another self IDāing transgender person from winning, to show how stupid the rule is. If you want other examples just look at the women that get raped in bloody rape crisis centres and even prisons by self idāing males.
And again, if they want to change their gender a thousand times, how is it any of your business? Besides sports competitions and bathrooms.
Sports competitions and bathrooms etc in this situation are the only thing I am against. I donāt care if you want to change your gender 1000000 times a day. It doesnāt affect me. I donāt care. As Iāve said many times, I care when it affects other people, such as in sporting competitions and bathrooms (and children of course).
Look, I understand that if I call someone that looks and talk like a women a she, but wants to be called a man, thereās going to be a confusion. But what do I lose out of my day if they simply said āsorry, Iām actually a heā and I respect that moving forward?
Youāre not going to get any disagreement from me though, this is what I keep saying. I have nothing against transgender people. Everyone can live their life identifying as whatever the hell they want, I donāt care. I care about fairness, safety, and scientific facts though, so when you identifying as something else encroaches on any of that, thatās when we have a problem.
Chances are you and I will go our entire lives never coming in contact with an actual intersex person. Your children probably wonāt either. Their children also wonāt. Your parents wouldnāt have either. Statistically theyāre just basically not a thing.
What would I have them do in regards to what exactly?
Itās also telling when people frame any and all discussion around anything LGBT+ as ātransphobicā and ātrying to kill trans peopleā.
The current gender/trans ideology isnāt just scientific fact that has to be followed and believed. People should be allowed to disagree and question it without being censored and banned.
That seems to be the point the creator is making - they didnāt make it to be a circle jerking safe space for only the far left āprogressivesā. They made it for everyone to be able to talk about their beliefs without being censored and banned, but one ideological group absolutely doesnāt want that.
It is scientific fact; at least every major medical organization in the US is in total agreement about what you refer to as āgender ideology,ā and what we call the existence of trans people.
āJust asking questionsā about it is as disingenuous and false as ājust asking questionsā about evolution. If you truly believe trans people exist and deserve to be respected you wouldnāt feel the need to ask these questions.
But yes, the founder chose anti-trans concerns above trans concerns. LGBT people will leave and the platform will become a conservative circlejerk. You have that part right at least.
Youāve really jumped deep into things by assuming what the person youāre responding to means isnāt scientific fact is the actual existence of trans people. They could, but they were woefully vague.
Most people Iāve interacted with who have misgivings are more focused on things like the insistence that there are no differences between afab and amab bodies, and therefore trans women athletes should be allowed to compete against afab athletes.
Thatās a currently āunallowed to challengeā topic that pretty much immediately gets you labelled transphobic, but hereās the rub: female athletes doping with testosterone to achieve higher muscle mass is something that is banned from sports competitions, so why does it matter whether it was artificially obtained via pill or naturally by the fact that they had years of body and muscle development as male before transistioning?
Thereās no good solution to this problem, but the fact that anyone who brings it up gets labelled as transphobic is ridiculous. Itās not inherently denying trans people anything to discuss it (that has more to do with the person discussing it than the topic itself). For me itās an attempt to ensure that all female athletes afab trans or other are on an even playing field, ideally so people have less excuse to easily dismiss trans athlete achievements.
I donāt think this is vague in the slightest:
I know no person interested in trans liberation that also talks about āgender/trans ideology.ā
I find sports misgivings a red herring with regards to trans liberation. To me, it feels like asking someone to be less racist, and hearing them respond āwell what about Black people in sports? What about white athletesā feelings? How do we determine if an athlete is white enough to compete against other whites?ā The entire notion is wrong-headed to begin with. Yes, if we include trans people in sports, sometimes they might win. Whatās so bad about trans people winning at sports?
In any case, clearly the person I was responding to was not talking about this.
Here is the thing when it comes to sports, there are usually two main divisions in most sports, the best of the best league, and the women league. In most sports there is technically no rule against women playing in the best of the best leagues, but they are just at so much of a disadvantage it is almost unheard of for them to be able to compete at that level. The only reason that women only sports exist is to allow people with that biological disadvantage to compete professionally against others with the same disadvantage. Itās a league thatās sole purpose is to allow women to be competitive against other women because the men are just so much better.
It might sound like Iām bashing womenās sports, but Iām not. Iām glad women have an avenue to compete at pro levels, because without women only sports they would not.
I have no problem with anybody trying to compete in the best of the best league, men, women, trans, black, white, etc. But when it comes to leagues specifically limited to give those in the league a fair competition, we shouldnāt be opening that up to those who donāt have the disadvantage that defines the league. This applies to women leagues, the special Olympics, and other limited leagues.
I know this, I just donāt think it matters. Our a priori assumption must be trans people should be included everywhere as much as possible, just like Black people or Jewish people. Fairness will adjust to our expectations, so everything will feel fine in the end, just as it did when we allowed other minorities to compete in leagues they were formerly barred from.
How can it not matter? You have a sport built around the idea of fair competition to a genetic physical weakness, and you think we should just throw that all away? Iām not sure why you are bringing race and nationality into this discussion, thatās never been a race based disadvantage that we decided we needed to design sports around.
I agree, but I think sports falls under ānot possibleā because they donāt meet the requirements for the womenās league. I have no problem with a trans league, or they are more than welcome to compete in the best of the best league. I donāt think they should be competing in womenās sports, itās unfair to all biological women athletes who compete against other biological women athletes.
And if you want to compare it to race, where the idea of a race segregated sport would be super controversial, letās just get rid of womenās sports all together. Women are equal to men, right? They can do anything a man can do, right? What are we pretending women arenāt equal by putting them in their own sports leagues? Letās just get rid of all womenās sports, let them compete directly with the men, and may the best win.
Iām fine sorting people by weight classes or hormone levels. But gender is not a useful way to do that and hasnāt been for years. The Olympics, for example, tests your hormone levels and not what your natal sex was or what your genitals look like.
But ultimately I just donāt think sports matters more than peoplesā rights. So if we have to abolish gendered sports, especially below the ultra-professional level, Iām fine with that.
And yes, people did indeed claim certain races had advantages in sports and pointed to science about muscle density to support their theories. They would consider themselves well-justified by Black people dominating certain sports. It is the same with trans athletes.
So you are for getting rid of womenās sports, special Olympics, and everything in that realm and just letting everyone compete as people of the human race?
What rights? There is no right to compete in stuff you are not eligible for.
So you are fine with women essentially never being competitive in sports? Personally I think itās great they have their own league, because otherwise there wouldnāt really be women in sports.
Except that they are competing in the open to everyone category, even if some races had an advantage, thatās legal in an open to everyone category. Womenās sports are not open to everyone, only to biological females who donāt take performance enhancing substances. Again, if you want to essentially remove women from sports by pretending biological males and females are the same, thatās your grave to dig.
Race isnāt the same as gender, Iām hoping you realize that. In todayās world, gender is more a state of mind than anything else, race is not. I can choose to become the opposite gender, I canāt choose to be black as a white person.
If trans athletes want to compete in sports, compete in the open to everyone league, donāt try to compete in leagues you donāt qualify for. Womenās sports, if they are to still exist, are for biological and non testosterone taking females only.
Exactly.
The NFL isnāt a male league for example - itās an open league. How many women have ever even made it to the tryout stage? One. A kicker. She didnāt come close to making even a training squad.
Sam Kerr, the best womenās soccer player on earth, wouldnāt even get close to making a menās pro team. The world beating womenās USA team, winners of the past 2 world cups, got annihilated by an under 15s boys team.
Sex matters in sport, not gender.
The issue isnāt just that they might win, itās that they will naturally dominate in competitions where biological makeup matters.
If you donāt see how thatās not fair I donāt know what to tell you. There are hard rules in biology that donāt mesh with gender identity politics, and thereās no way around that.
Fair to whom?
Lots of people were worried about Black people dominating certain sports. And, as it turns out, Black people do dominate certain sports. Is that unfair to white people?
No. People are just different. Fairness adjusts and we get over it.
So too here.
How do biological women adapt to someone like Lia Thomas? Are they just going to magically all just grow another foot in height and increase their bone density and muscle mass to levels that women canāt naturally get?
Youāre right, itās not vague at all - itās not denying trans people exist in any way. Trans people existing isnāt an ideology, so questioning the current trans and gender ideology has nothing to do with trans people existing or not. Youāre jumping to conclusions because you want to dismiss any opinion you donāt agree with, and currently the āthatās transphobic!ā line is basically a get out of jail free card in that way. Just call someone transphobic and get them banned so you donāt have to have your opinion challenged, create that echo chamber you want so badly.
Your response to the sports issue of āwhatās so wrong with trans women winning womenās sporting eventsā says it all. āWho cares about biological women, the feelings of trans women matter more.ā
Trans women can compete with men. If there is no physical or biological advantage for males then why do they need to compete with the women? They can compete with the men and should do just fine.
Lia Thomas is all that needs to be pointed out for why your ideology here is wrong. 500+ ranked manā¦ā¦instantly #1 ranked woman. Breaks all the womenās records. Where are the trans men swimmers dominating the menās division in swimming? Or in track and field? Cycling? Anywhere at all?!
Bingo.
No one denies trans people exist, but this is how the āprogressivesā that want males competing with females in sport and using female-only services frame any and all questioning of their ideology and motives.
I donāt agree. I have A LOT of questions about gender identity to which I canāt hypothesize answers because as a cis/het person I have no idea what it means and what it feels like being transgender, and I grew up in a time and a place where nobody ever talked about gender identity. The only way I can educate myself is by asking questions. Now I know a lot of people in the LGBTQ community are kinda fed up answering this kind of questions, and with good reason (cf. the ājust asking questionsā posture of anti-trans people). But some of us are being honest at just asking questions.
Those arenāt the kinds of questions the OP was talking about; their dogwhistle about ātrans/gender ideology isnāt scientific factā shows that they are indeed the kind of anti-trans person who is ājust asking questionsā to harass trans people.
If you have legitimate questions there are many excellent resources on the Internet and even in Lemmy itself where LGBTQ people will be happy to chat with you, if you approach them in a respectful manner :)
Gender ideology is not scientific fact. Gender as it is now know has literally no basis in science. Sex is biological reality. Gender is now a āfeelingā.
Iām happy to inform you that gender is also a scientific fact: https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/what-do-we-mean-by-sex-and-gender/ It literally has a basis in science and you can both study it and perform science on it!
Thatās not āscientific factā. For something to be scientific fact it has to have scientific facts supporting it.
From that article:
āself representationā is how you feel. Itās a feeling. Thatās not scientific fact. Going āwe acknowledge that society now treats gender as a new thing separate to sexā isnāt the same as it being a scientifically proven fact.
Iām really not seeing the logic here, so called āfeelingsā are scientific facts and we do studies on them all the time. Is hunger not a feeling? Same thing with self-representation. Those arenāt nebulous concepts. Those are well-established scientific facts. Gender is an important part of self-representation and from all indications, one people have very little control over.
Thatās disingenuous and your own link doesnāt support what you are saying. The link demonstrates that gender to refer to self-identity is both recent and an artificial distinction. The science behind transgenderism is far from settled as much as people would like it to be. We donāt even know what causes it.
Oh noā¦ it does say exactly that and the science is indeed settled. Thereās no āartificial distinction;ā science says gender and sex are indeed different. Unless of course you can link a reputable scientific organization that disagrees with that overwhelming consensus?
We donāt know what causes most cancers either. That doesnāt mean they canāt be studied scientifically.
Your own link say says that gender is a social construct now. Theyāre saying that there is literally no science involved, there is no basis in scientific fact there.
I didnāt say it shouldnāt be scientifically studied. It definitely should be, especially the extremely high rates of comorbid mental illnesses in trans/non-binary people.
The article you linked states that gender is now commonly considered a social construct rather than tied to your biological sex. They are making the distinction so that there is no confusion when reading their papers.
The science is not settled, they are conceding that the common use of the term now has a different meaning than it did in the past.
Why do you guys always always jump straight to āyouāre trying to deny trans people existā? No one is saying trans people donāt exist. people are, however, opposed to people telling preschoolers that if they like stereotypical opposite sex things that theyāre trans and should choose a new name and wear the other genders stereotypical clothes. Itās indoctrination.
If a kid still believes in Santa clause, telling them theyāre trans and giving them praise and letting them choose their own name etc is forcing your ideology on them. They donāt know any better. All they know is an adult is telling them something so it must be true. Again - they believe in Santa clause and the tooth fairy. They donāt have the mental capacity to understand these things. They donāt have the mental capacity to be making permanent life altering decisions.
This whole ājust asking questionsā bullshit is just a way the āprogressivesā try to weaponise anyone questioning their beliefs and ideologies.
If lgbtq people canāt stand seeing people have different opinions to them then they should leave. They shouldnāt be trying to get everyone else banned.
This is totally nonsense. No one is āindoctrinatingā childrenā¦ except those who claim that children canāt be trans. I would encourage you to swallow your pride and your preconceived notions and actually talk to trans people, many of whom report knowing exactly who they were at the first age they were aware of gender.
Anyway, the rest of your point is basically hateful bullshit. If you canāt deal with LGBT people and our opinions, youāre the one that should get out. We frankly donāt need you.
When people say this they mean that children donāt have the mental capacity to make that life changing decision. Again - kids believe in santa clause, the easter bunny, and the tooth fairy. They are extremely easily influenced and will believe what their parents tell them to a fault. If you tell a kid theyāre trans because they like the colour pink as a boy or blue as a girl, theyāre gonna believe you. That is the indoctrination people are talking about.
Are there kids that actually have gender dysphoria? Sure. Theyāre the extreme minority of the kids that are currently trans though, because they donāt even understand gender let alone āgender identityā. Even teenagers arenāt mentally developed enough to be making life altering decisions, which is why we donāt let under 18 year olds get tattoos, drink, vote, etc. If you accept that these restrictions need to be in place for children, how can you be ok with giving them life altering drugs and surgeries?
Sighā¦thereās the usual ātransphobicā type dismissal/attack used to try and stop any and all discussion of differing viewpoints.
I can deal with LGBT people, I have no issues with them at all as Iāve said many times. Iāve explained why I donāt, and what I do have problems with. Ironic that you say āWe frankly donāt need you.ā because if that were true you wouldnāt be constantly trying to force your beliefs on me.
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Thatās the point OP was making when they said LGBT+ isnāt political. LGBT+ isnāt an ideology for people to share ābeliefsā about. It will exist whether or not you believe in it, and normalizing people who say I donāt believe in it is essentially denying the LGBT+ personās identity. Itās ok to say you donāt understand, or even like it, but to simply say āyouāre making up your gender identityā is wrong and harmful.
The current LGBTQ+ ideology is a political ideology though. Itās not just facts and itās not about āexistingā like people try to make it out to be.
The current trend of āa 3 year old boy that plays with barbies is trans so should be put on puberty blockersā is an ideology, same with ātrans women have no physical advantages over biological womenā, same with trying to teach 8 year olds about anal sex and masturbation. None of these things have anything to do with people āexistingā.
The ideology that says simply saying youāre a woman makes you a woman and therefore are entitled to women-only places and things like scholarships and awards is what most people are against. No one cares if a 25 year old biological male wants to put on a dress and wear makeup and call themself Jane. Most people will even play along with your new pronouns. People shouldnāt be forced to by law though, and thatās another of the big issues people have.
Tl;dr - being trans isnāt political. Pushing the current trans beliefs and ideologies like gender identity, self ID, and ātrans women are womenā is.
How are medically approved operations by doctors an ideology? As long as the parents and their doctors have identified an issue they need to address, and the procedure they decide on is safe, reversible, and is known to make the childās life happier, who are you and I to stop them?
Thatās conservatives making it political. Claiming your own gender identity is not political, itās a natural human behavior to self identify. Please explain how you can say trans people can exist while at the same time if they try to self-identity then theyāre being political? Thereās no āconservative geneā that prevents you from choosing your gender identity (i.e. Caitlyn Jenner). Just acknowledging transgenderism exists is completely apolitical. If you see it as āpushing gender identityā thatās your problem.
I didnāt once mention medically approved operations? If youāre talking about doing them on kids then thatās a whole other issue.
And here lies the problem - parents pushing their ideology on to their kids. Also what ātrans surgeriesā are āsafe and reversibleā? None. Cutting off your male genitalia is not reversible. A hysterectomy is not reversible. Cutting off your breasts is not reversible (though you can at least try and make up for it with breast implants). Puberty blockers are not fully reversible, and most countries are now acknowledging this. You simply cannot stunt someones physical (and mental) growth and have it just resume years later as if nothing has changed. There are zero long term studies on puberty blockers. There are however known long term issues with them.
Not as a different gender/sex itās not. It has only become a thing very recently, where simply saying āIām a womanā now means youāre a woman, no questions asked.
Thatās not at all what I said. Pushing for being able to let āSelf IDā give you access to the opposite sexes spaces and sports and awards and other things is the political part. Trans people existing has nothing to do with that. The issues with self ID are that men who have literally done nothing to transition can now go in to womens events/spaces without question. A great example is the weightlifting competitions where gender Self ID was allowed, so a anti-self id man entered and just annihilated the competition as a protest to show how stupid it is. The only requirement for him to enter the womens competition was for him to tick a box saying heās a woman.
Transgender and gender ideology are different things. Transgender is āI am the other gender to what I was born asā. Gender ideology is āI can be whatever gender i want, whenever i want, and can change gender a thousand times during the day, and I should get all of the rights afforded to whichever sex/gender i call myself at the timeā. Theyāre not one and the same.
Indigenous peoples have acknowledged a āthird genderā aka non binary for centuries - way before colonization.
How can you say self identifying in regards to sex/gender is a recent ideology when itās been part of human history for centuries?
Sounds like bland, generic, thoughtless conservative nonsense to eliminate other perspectives (especially when you discount them as new despite existing for centuries)
It hasnāt though. People are now using absurd leaps to try and pretend that it has been around for centuries, but it hasnāt. Got some links to these āthird genderā stories?
No, I donāt approve of irreversible medical surgeries on people under age of 16, but thatās not a thing in any case. Itās in response to your comments about 3 year olds getting puberty blockers (which is also not a thing) in which case it is temporary, reversible, and typically starts at 8 (10+ for boys).
My child is sick, feeling depressed, I go to the doctor, they discuss possible issues, and through preset, clinical guidelines, they decide that treatment for gender dysmorphia is an option. Again, reversible, safe treatments like puberty blockers and therapy that help prevent children from self-harm and further confusion about their identify. Itās not like theyāre passing out puberty blockers like candies for funsies and doing this for fun.
Iām not even talking about transgender surgeries, which happens at 18+ of age.
Sayās who? If one wants another to call them by another thing, who are we to dispute that? Gender CAN be fluid. Your biological sex that you were born with hasnāt changed, itās their GENDER. Gender doesnāt have to match your sex. And transgenderism has been a thing since ancient times. Have you considered that maybe more people are coming āoutā recently because theyāre feeling safer to express themselves?
There have been exactly 0 assaults by transgender women entering a public bathroom. And your concerns about a troll entering sports competitions is going to out-weight all of the self-harm and suicides committed by people suffering from unaddressed/repressed gender identity issues?
Show me one time where that has happened and it has harmed someone else by doing it. And again, if they want to change their gender once or a thousand times, how is it any of your business? Besides sports competitions and bathrooms, I mean.
Having empowerment over their gender identity is an important part of being a transgender person, denying them that right is inhuman and cruel. Gender ideology, or whatever you want to call it, is simply (in my opinion) expressing a sense of safety and freedom to others that want to identify as something else from what they were born as. And believe it or not, this can happen whether you are conservative or liberal - it is absolutely a HUMAN desire, not a political one.
Look, I understand that if I call someone that looks and talk like a women a she, but wants to be called a man, thereās going to be confusion. But what do I lose out of my day if they simply said āsorry, Iām actually a heā and I respect that moving forward?
That thing that never happens yet still happens isnāt actually happening? lol Also why did you choose 16 as your cutoff? Theyāre still legally, physically, and mentally a child at 16.
Not fully reversible, and the sooner your āsideā acknowledges this the better. Governments all over the world are recognising this now and are removing all mentions of āfully reversibleā from their documents and legislation, and many are now outlawing it altogether because there are literally no long term studies done to prove that they are reversible. The difference between 3 and 8 or 10 is completely irrelevant. A 8 year old has no better understanding of gender identity than a 3 year old, they lack the mental capacity for understanding this and they absolutely cannot understand the life long repercussions.
Sick? Gender dysphoria/dysmorphia doesnāt make anyone āsickā. Youāre also overlooking all of the places that hand out diagnoses and scripts for drugs after a literal 10 minute phone call, intentionally so most likely.
Apart from when they donāt, like how you yourself even said in this same post that youāre ok with it at 16 years of age. What is it, 18 or 16?
Again, this is the problem - you can call yourself whatever you want. I. Donāt. Care. Simply calling yourself a woman however should not mean that you now have access to womenās sports and women only safe spaces like gyms and doctors etc.
Come on mate, you donāt even believe these lies.
The fact that even post gender affirming surgery the suicide rate doesnāt decrease among transgender people says all that needs to be said. Youāre basically saying ālet womens sports be taken over by biological males because if you donāt the transgender people will kill themselvesā. I believe this is what you guys call āgaslightingā?
I literally just did with the weightlifting example. A woman lost out on a prize because a man chose to be a woman so he could enter the competition. Self ID lets that happen. He did it to stop another self IDāing transgender person from winning, to show how stupid the rule is. If you want other examples just look at the women that get raped in bloody rape crisis centres and even prisons by self idāing males.
Sports competitions and bathrooms etc in this situation are the only thing I am against. I donāt care if you want to change your gender 1000000 times a day. It doesnāt affect me. I donāt care. As Iāve said many times, I care when it affects other people, such as in sporting competitions and bathrooms (and children of course).
Youāre not going to get any disagreement from me though, this is what I keep saying. I have nothing against transgender people. Everyone can live their life identifying as whatever the hell they want, I donāt care. I care about fairness, safety, and scientific facts though, so when you identifying as something else encroaches on any of that, thatās when we have a problem.
Finally some sanity on this site.
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Genuine question, what would you expect people who were born intersex to do? How would you know whether or not someone is intersex?
Edit: They do exist.
Chances are you and I will go our entire lives never coming in contact with an actual intersex person. Your children probably wonāt either. Their children also wonāt. Your parents wouldnāt have either. Statistically theyāre just basically not a thing.
What would I have them do in regards to what exactly?