Thatās not correct in any way. The word āChristianā has a specific definition. If someone claims theyāre a āChristianā but donāt believe in Jesus, then theyāre not a Christian. They canāt be. If someone claims to be a āCatholicā but doesnāt āacceptā Pope Francis as the legitimate Pope, theyāre not a Catholic. I can claim to be a musician but, if I canāt play any instruments, Iām not.
Yeahā¦ if we used the definitions of social media, then the existence of trans people is a religious belief and wokeness is a religion. Itās the single stupidest chain of sentiment to come out since the belief in a flat earth.
If someone claims to be a āCatholicā but doesnāt āacceptā Pope Francis as the legitimate Pope, theyāre not a Catholic.
Thatās not true. There have been quite a number of schisms in the catholic church which resulted in a split on who people thought was the pope. The guy who doesnāt come out on top in that situation is called an antipope. Sometimes it was difficult to decide in history which person was the pope and which was antipope. There have been about 40 of them with the last being in the 15th century.
Yes it is. Catholic dogma dictates that the Pope is the true representative of God and that he functions as the literal mouthpiece of God. Schisms might be true but, according to Catholicism, there canāt be a mistake when it comes to the Pope and what he says when speaking on doctrine. Itās called Papal Infallibility.
Accordingly, that means any schisms from Catholicism, by definition, arenāt Catholic because they break the promise Jesus made to Peter.
That doesnāt change the fact that Palmerians consider themselves the one true catholic church and that they consider their members catholic. They would claim their anti-pope is the infallible one, not Pope Francis.
It doesnāt matter what they consider themselves, though. Thatās the point. If the Pope is the mouthpiece of god and is infallible, then their sect (and by extension their anti-pope) cannot be Catholics since dogma and doctrine dictate that the actual Pope is infallible and beyond contestation.
If both churches consider themselves with infallible popes declaring gods will on earth, who is right? Do you see the dilemma? Neither can say that the other sect are true Catholics.
So if someone claims to be catholic but doesnāt accept Pope Francis that doesnāt make them not a catholic, it just means they donāt think Pope Francis is the legitimate pope. They would consider him an antipope and his statements ex cathedra are therefore fallible since they arenāt really statements ex cathedra in their minds.
No. Youāre wrong. The original Catholic dogma, directly from St. Peter and promised by Jesus, states that the Pope will forever be the mouthpiece of god. To directly contradict that at a point in the future after the founding of the church when the lineage of the church is unbroken is to become, by definition, something other than a Catholic. Otherwise, youāre saying that Jesus lied or that the Pope is wrong, both ideas that go completely against the central tenets of the religion.
Whether or not both churches consider themselves anything is irrelevant. One side can say that they are the true Catholics if they were the ones to create the belief system, dogma, and tenets. The other side canāt say that the actual Catholics arenāt true Catholics because Catholic belief is defined by the infallibility of the leader of the organization. By direct influence of their god, he is perfect in all matters of dogma, religion, and definition. In order to defy that, youāre defying the god upon which the religion is founded which makes their beliefs heresy and hypocrisy.
I canāt even believe this is being debated right now, especially like this.
No it doesnāt. It leans on Catholic dogma being defined by Catholics. Papal infallibility comes from Jesusā promise to Peter that whoever leads the Church will always be guided by God. Since it comes directly from Jesus, the figurehead of Catholicism, the only ātruthā that needs to be accepted is that Jesus + Pope (Peter) is Catholicism. Thereās no question of truth or victory. The very foundation of the idea of Catholicism relies on the idea that the Pope is never wrong on issues of doctrine and dogma.
If someone claims theyāre a āChristianā but donāt believe in Jesus, then theyāre not a Christian.
Thatās fair. It still hinges on a belief claim only. Based on a personās other actions, you can doubt that claim, but the singular authority for what a person actually believes is what that person claims to believe.
Thatās only true if that claim is made in good faith. I can claim to be a Christian all I want but, if I donāt believe in god, then my claim isnāt coming from a place of good faith (literally). I canāt make the claim and that claim be true if Iāve twisted the definition of what Iām claiming in order to make that claim. If I claim to be vegan but I have redefined āveganā to ignore the use of animal products and am only focused on eating animals and animal products, then Iām a liar rather than what youāre inferring which is that my claim is true because I believe it to be true. A āveganā walking around in leather pants is not a vegan, regardless of what they believe or claim.
Whether someone is a āveganā depends on behavior in ways that āChristianā doesnāt. Even so, being āveganā - even when the person does not directly and knowingly consume animal products - completely ignores the fact that they are indirectly making use of animal products, because they depend on a society that currently uses animal products, and where that society got to the technological level itās at through the use of animal products over many millenia.
And weāre back to No True Scotsman, adjusting the definition to fit the circumstances.
No it doesnāt. Being vegan doesnāt mean that you believe youāre not using or consuming animal products. It means you donāt consume animal products. Period. Itās why the Vegan Police came after Todd. The only person adjusting the definition to fit the circumstances is you. If a central tenet of being a vegan is that the very first vegan ever said that anyone who eats or uses an animal product canāt be vegan, then that person isnāt vegan whether they intended that or not. The Catholic Church is founded on the idea that the Pope is the mouthpiece of god. To say that any Pope chosen in the lineage of that church is ānot the real popeā is blasphemy and, by definition, not Catholic.
The Catholic Church is founded on the idea that the Pope is the mouthpiece of god.
Who decides who the ārightā Pope is? You must certainly know that issues of succession (oh so topically) are often contested, and the Catholic Church is not immune to that.
God does. Thatās the point. The Catholic belief, which is written into the very doctrine and dogma of the religion, is that God is guiding the process and that God chooses the Pope. The whole religion is based on the idea that Jesus took the wheel and handed it to Peter afterwards who then handed it to the next person. Papal infallibility, as a concept, is the promise that the leadership of the Catholic Church is free from human error so, yes, according to their own beliefs, they are explicitly immune from that.
Of course it is. But youāre the one arguing against your definition of these terms, not their own. From a standpoint of furthering discussion, Iām an atheist. I donāt believe any of this. But I know what the religion dictates as the definition of who they are and, based on that, youāre wrong about how they view themselves and how theyāve defined themselves.
No, it does not. What ways does it depend on? You either follow the tenets and doctrine of the religion or you donāt. If your actions directly contradict the meaning of the word, then it doesnāt depend on anything. Itās a binary concept.
If your actions directly contradict the meaning of the word, then it doesnāt depend on anything.
Using this weirdo logic to define whether or not a person is a Christian means that you have to know the entirety of actions of their whole life to see if they entirely followed the tenants and doctrine of the religion or not, because the instant they donāt theyāre not a Christian.
Since only God would be capable of such knowledge, only God would be capable of labeling people Christian or notā¦so effectively nobodyās a Christian.
Seems wrong in an obvious and fundamental way (because it makes the categorizations all pointless), but hey whatever grips your gourd, friendo.
No, you donāt. Those things are not tenets of Christianity or Catholicism. What weāre discussing here is whether breaking the central tenets of the religion disqualifies someone from including themselves in that group and itās pretty clear that the answer is yes.
As an example, you canāt be a Jew and deny the Ten Commandments. Period. If someone went around saying that it was OK to kill people and that stealing is justified, they cannot call themselves Jews without also being liars. It has nothing to do with whether they themselves have stolen or may have accidentally killed someone (which, in both cases, would make them imperfect Jews). It has to do with whether or not they believe that their actions are wrong by virtue of going against the only rules the religion has at its core.
Lastly, since this will be my last response to youā¦ you donāt have to be such a rude, insufferable asshole in your responses, āfriendoā. I am not your friend. Your inability to understand basic statements followed by your complete incredulity, once the misunderstanding is pointed out, just show that itās a waste of time talking to you. Your absolute toxicity, though, is what makes you and your opinions meaningless.
Thatās not correct in any way. The word āChristianā has a specific definition.
Webster isnāt any more of a dictator of truth than anyone else. Thereās a reason why Socrates spent a lot of time debating definitions with people. Theyāre hard to actually get right.
If someone claims theyāre a āChristianā but donāt believe in Jesus, then theyāre not a Christian. They canāt be.
But what if they also claim to believe in Jesus? How do you measure or test belief? How do you know whatās in the mind or soul of a person?
If someone claims to be a āCatholicā but doesnāt āacceptā Pope Francis as the legitimate Pope, theyāre not a Catholic.
What if they attend Catholic mass? Hell, what if theyāre a member of the priesthood?
I can claim to be a musician but, if I canāt play any instruments, Iām not.
Even this is a bad argument. Arenāt singers musicians? How about rappers?
All of this debate is really over whether or not something is no longer a thing if theyāre not a high quality version of that thing. I think itās a fairly shallow debate because a wobbly stool is still a stool. A shitty singer is still a musician. A broken chair is still a chair, and similarly just because someoneās a bad Christian doesnāt mean theyāre not a Christian.
Weāre not talking about the definition from Webster. Weāre talking about the definition from Jesus that was given to Saint Peter, the very first Pope. The definition here is not in question because the idea was defined by the people who founded the religion.
How do you measure or test belief?
You donāt have to. Being a Christian isnāt only predicated on believing in Jesus. If that was the case, then Satan is also a Christian because heās personally met Jesus and, therefore, would be forced to ābelieveā in him. Luckily, Jesus himself supposedly stated and passed down what it means to be a Christian and those people supposedly wrote it down.
What if they attend Catholic mass? Hell, what if theyāre a member of the priesthood?
Also irrelevant. A priest who molests children cannot be a Christian whether they were inducted into the priesthood or whether they attend Mass because the very rules of the religion, as instructed by their figurehead, remove them from the group based on their actions. Itās repeated numerous times throughout the Bible that Christians will be known by their actions.
Even this is a bad argument. Arenāt singers musicians? How about rappers?
Itās not a bad argument, you just misunderstood it. The voice is an instrument.
All of this debate is really over whether or not something is no longer a thing if theyāre not a high quality version of that thing. I think itās a fairly shallow debate because a wobbly stool is still a stool. A shitty singer is still a musician. A broken chair is still a chair, and similarly just because someoneās a bad Christian doesnāt mean theyāre not a Christian.
No. Again, youāve misunderstood the argument. If I started a religion today and I said that the only qualification of the religion is that people have to kiss me on the mouth, then itās not possible for someone who has not kissed me on the mouth to be part of the religion. They can follow everything else Iāve said to the letter but, as long as they havenāt kissed me directly on the mouth, they cannot be a part of this particular religion because they are missing the central qualification. Itās not about whether someone is āgoodā or ābadā at doing something. Itās whether theyāre doing that thing at all.
Itās not a bad argument, you just misunderstood it. The voice is an instrument.
Ok then, so who is this person that can āclaim to be a musicianā but isnāt?
As for the rest of your load of gish gallop: the bible, like all other texts, is up for interpretation and has been re-interpreted many times with many different takeaways. Itās not even the original text, was translated multiple times, and there is no way we can be assured that the King James Bible (Taylorās Version) is the real deal. Definitions from it arenāt more authoritative than Websterā¦theyāre even less so.
Someone who doesnāt play any instrument, including singing. There are unending numbers of people who will tell you theyāre not musicians because they donāt even try. Anyone who doesnāt try but tells you theyāre a musician is a liar. Thatās the point.
load of gish gallop
Nothing that Iāve said should have been overwhelming or inundating. My premise is incredibly simple. You just keep misunderstanding it repeatedly because it seems that youāre not even reading whatās being said.
Weāre not talking about interpretation from the Bible. Weāre talking about the definition used by Catholics that is part of their dogma and doctrine. Weāre talking about quoting the (supposed) words of Jesus in places where there is no debate on the meaning. You can try to dismiss and downplay what Iāve said all you want but none of what Iāve said is inaccurate whereas your response is full of inaccuracies and misunderstandings.
Someone who doesnāt play any instrument, including singing.
Lol, so someone who wants to claim to be a musician but canāt even sing badly (or rap badly, because rappers are still musicians)? Thatās who weāve excluded? Wow, what a useful definition for musician. š
Who is this person who wants to go around claiming musician creds and then canāt attempt a couple of bars?
Congratulations, you understand my example. Thatās my entire point. Someone who does not play or sing cannot possibly be a musician. If you donāt do the thing that defines the word that means āsomeone who does this thingā, then you canāt be that thing. Thatās the argument! If someone claims to be a Christian and doesnāt follow the example of the figurehead of Christianity, then they are not a Christian. If you donāt like the musician example, come up with a better one.
Someone who does not play or sing cannot possibly be a musician.
But given that bar thereās nobody that could claim to be a musician and then not just shit out a couple of bars and be one by your definition. So, again, your definition sucks (EDIT: and it happens to actually prove that what someone else is saying about āclaiming to be a Christian makes you a Christianā is essentially trueā¦because I can claim to be a musician and then sing a little happy birthday and I fit your definition).
If someone claims to be a Christian and doesnāt follow the example of the figurehead of Christianity, then they are not a Christian.
Now itās āfollow the exampleā. So is that words? Actions? Both? Who determines what is āChrist-likeā? You? Are you the guy who determines who is and isnāt a Christian?
Are you being intentionally obtuse here or what? The definition isnāt about being capable of singing (even poorly). Itās about whether or not the person does that thing in their life. If you donāt like the music example, choose a different profession. For example, if I claim to be a golfer, I canāt be one if I donāt play golf. I canāt claim to be a golfer and then āshit out golf clubs and whack a ball aroundā. Youāre just being an asshole and arguing semantics over the fact that someone can use their voice. Normal, reasonable people understand that āshit[ting] out a couple barsā doesnāt make one a music anymore than hitting a golf ball at a party makes you a golfer. Stop being disingenuous.
Now itās āfollow the exampleā
What do you mean here? This implies that my position on this has changed somewhere. Iāve already clarified in my 1st response to you that ābelief in Jesusā isnāt enough to make someone Christian. Itās what started your whole fake confusion about being a musician. This kind of nonsense just leads me to believe that youāre not arguing in good faith here (which is already obvious but I try give people the benefit of the doubt).
To answer your question, Christ determines what is āChrist-likeā. I would think that was obvious and implied but now you just seem to be pretending to be confused.
ā¦ if theyāre not a high quality version of that thing.
And who is the arbiter of quality, and who draws the line in the sand?
I know this has all kind of devolved into a semantic argument, and a weird discussion about Popery, and I think at this point itās worth reiterating my initial point: If someone claims to belong to a religion, they do. Whether that claim enables anyone to make predictions or judgments about a personās other statements or actions is another question entirely.
If someone claims to belong to a religion, they do.
I think this is 100% true for generic things like āChristianityā. When theyāre more official organizationsā¦still maybe, but if someoneās been excommunicated from something it makes sense to me from a practical standpoint that they no longer belong to that thing.
Thatās not correct in any way. The word āChristianā has a specific definition. If someone claims theyāre a āChristianā but donāt believe in Jesus, then theyāre not a Christian. They canāt be. If someone claims to be a āCatholicā but doesnāt āacceptā Pope Francis as the legitimate Pope, theyāre not a Catholic. I can claim to be a musician but, if I canāt play any instruments, Iām not.
Everyone knows words are stripped of their definitions on social media.
Yeahā¦ if we used the definitions of social media, then the existence of trans people is a religious belief and wokeness is a religion. Itās the single stupidest chain of sentiment to come out since the belief in a flat earth.
Thatās not true. There have been quite a number of schisms in the catholic church which resulted in a split on who people thought was the pope. The guy who doesnāt come out on top in that situation is called an antipope. Sometimes it was difficult to decide in history which person was the pope and which was antipope. There have been about 40 of them with the last being in the 15th century.
The Palmarian Church is a catholic splinter group that has an antipope.
Yes it is. Catholic dogma dictates that the Pope is the true representative of God and that he functions as the literal mouthpiece of God. Schisms might be true but, according to Catholicism, there canāt be a mistake when it comes to the Pope and what he says when speaking on doctrine. Itās called Papal Infallibility.
Accordingly, that means any schisms from Catholicism, by definition, arenāt Catholic because they break the promise Jesus made to Peter.
Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility
That doesnāt change the fact that Palmerians consider themselves the one true catholic church and that they consider their members catholic. They would claim their anti-pope is the infallible one, not Pope Francis.
It doesnāt matter what they consider themselves, though. Thatās the point. If the Pope is the mouthpiece of god and is infallible, then their sect (and by extension their anti-pope) cannot be Catholics since dogma and doctrine dictate that the actual Pope is infallible and beyond contestation.
If both churches consider themselves with infallible popes declaring gods will on earth, who is right? Do you see the dilemma? Neither can say that the other sect are true Catholics.
So if someone claims to be catholic but doesnāt accept Pope Francis that doesnāt make them not a catholic, it just means they donāt think Pope Francis is the legitimate pope. They would consider him an antipope and his statements ex cathedra are therefore fallible since they arenāt really statements ex cathedra in their minds.
Neither of them. Claims donāt beget fact.
No. Youāre wrong. The original Catholic dogma, directly from St. Peter and promised by Jesus, states that the Pope will forever be the mouthpiece of god. To directly contradict that at a point in the future after the founding of the church when the lineage of the church is unbroken is to become, by definition, something other than a Catholic. Otherwise, youāre saying that Jesus lied or that the Pope is wrong, both ideas that go completely against the central tenets of the religion.
Whether or not both churches consider themselves anything is irrelevant. One side can say that they are the true Catholics if they were the ones to create the belief system, dogma, and tenets. The other side canāt say that the actual Catholics arenāt true Catholics because Catholic belief is defined by the infallibility of the leader of the organization. By direct influence of their god, he is perfect in all matters of dogma, religion, and definition. In order to defy that, youāre defying the god upon which the religion is founded which makes their beliefs heresy and hypocrisy.
I canāt even believe this is being debated right now, especially like this.
Read the whole Bible, not just the canonical bit.
Itās not a biblical question. Itās a dogmatic question. Reading the Bible, in part or in its entirety, isnāt going to help answer this question.
This assumes that Catholic dogma is objectively true, and leans heavily on history being written by the victors.
No it doesnāt. It leans on Catholic dogma being defined by Catholics. Papal infallibility comes from Jesusā promise to Peter that whoever leads the Church will always be guided by God. Since it comes directly from Jesus, the figurehead of Catholicism, the only ātruthā that needs to be accepted is that Jesus + Pope (Peter) is Catholicism. Thereās no question of truth or victory. The very foundation of the idea of Catholicism relies on the idea that the Pope is never wrong on issues of doctrine and dogma.
Thatās fair. It still hinges on a belief claim only. Based on a personās other actions, you can doubt that claim, but the singular authority for what a person actually believes is what that person claims to believe.
Thatās only true if that claim is made in good faith. I can claim to be a Christian all I want but, if I donāt believe in god, then my claim isnāt coming from a place of good faith (literally). I canāt make the claim and that claim be true if Iāve twisted the definition of what Iām claiming in order to make that claim. If I claim to be vegan but I have redefined āveganā to ignore the use of animal products and am only focused on eating animals and animal products, then Iām a liar rather than what youāre inferring which is that my claim is true because I believe it to be true. A āveganā walking around in leather pants is not a vegan, regardless of what they believe or claim.
Whether someone is a āveganā depends on behavior in ways that āChristianā doesnāt. Even so, being āveganā - even when the person does not directly and knowingly consume animal products - completely ignores the fact that they are indirectly making use of animal products, because they depend on a society that currently uses animal products, and where that society got to the technological level itās at through the use of animal products over many millenia.
And weāre back to No True Scotsman, adjusting the definition to fit the circumstances.
No it doesnāt. Being vegan doesnāt mean that you believe youāre not using or consuming animal products. It means you donāt consume animal products. Period. Itās why the Vegan Police came after Todd. The only person adjusting the definition to fit the circumstances is you. If a central tenet of being a vegan is that the very first vegan ever said that anyone who eats or uses an animal product canāt be vegan, then that person isnāt vegan whether they intended that or not. The Catholic Church is founded on the idea that the Pope is the mouthpiece of god. To say that any Pope chosen in the lineage of that church is ānot the real popeā is blasphemy and, by definition, not Catholic.
Who decides who the ārightā Pope is? You must certainly know that issues of succession (oh so topically) are often contested, and the Catholic Church is not immune to that.
God does. Thatās the point. The Catholic belief, which is written into the very doctrine and dogma of the religion, is that God is guiding the process and that God chooses the Pope. The whole religion is based on the idea that Jesus took the wheel and handed it to Peter afterwards who then handed it to the next person. Papal infallibility, as a concept, is the promise that the leadership of the Catholic Church is free from human error so, yes, according to their own beliefs, they are explicitly immune from that.
And thatās why this is entirely a circular and nonsensical thing.
Of course it is. But youāre the one arguing against your definition of these terms, not their own. From a standpoint of furthering discussion, Iām an atheist. I donāt believe any of this. But I know what the religion dictates as the definition of who they are and, based on that, youāre wrong about how they view themselves and how theyāve defined themselves.
You can if you sing.
The voice is still an instrument. Stop being a pedant.
You can play any instrument you like. Whether youāre āgood at itā is a separate issue.
Sureā¦ but if you donāt play at all, youāre not a musician no matter how much you believe it to be true.
As with āveganā, āmusicianā depends on behavior in ways that āChristianā does not.
No, it does not. What ways does it depend on? You either follow the tenets and doctrine of the religion or you donāt. If your actions directly contradict the meaning of the word, then it doesnāt depend on anything. Itās a binary concept.
Using this weirdo logic to define whether or not a person is a Christian means that you have to know the entirety of actions of their whole life to see if they entirely followed the tenants and doctrine of the religion or not, because the instant they donāt theyāre not a Christian.
Since only God would be capable of such knowledge, only God would be capable of labeling people Christian or notā¦so effectively nobodyās a Christian.
Seems wrong in an obvious and fundamental way (because it makes the categorizations all pointless), but hey whatever grips your gourd, friendo.
No, you donāt. Those things are not tenets of Christianity or Catholicism. What weāre discussing here is whether breaking the central tenets of the religion disqualifies someone from including themselves in that group and itās pretty clear that the answer is yes.
As an example, you canāt be a Jew and deny the Ten Commandments. Period. If someone went around saying that it was OK to kill people and that stealing is justified, they cannot call themselves Jews without also being liars. It has nothing to do with whether they themselves have stolen or may have accidentally killed someone (which, in both cases, would make them imperfect Jews). It has to do with whether or not they believe that their actions are wrong by virtue of going against the only rules the religion has at its core.
Lastly, since this will be my last response to youā¦ you donāt have to be such a rude, insufferable asshole in your responses, āfriendoā. I am not your friend. Your inability to understand basic statements followed by your complete incredulity, once the misunderstanding is pointed out, just show that itās a waste of time talking to you. Your absolute toxicity, though, is what makes you and your opinions meaningless.
So is it what people say or their actions that defines group membership? You canāt seem to make your mind up.
Webster isnāt any more of a dictator of truth than anyone else. Thereās a reason why Socrates spent a lot of time debating definitions with people. Theyāre hard to actually get right.
But what if they also claim to believe in Jesus? How do you measure or test belief? How do you know whatās in the mind or soul of a person?
What if they attend Catholic mass? Hell, what if theyāre a member of the priesthood?
Even this is a bad argument. Arenāt singers musicians? How about rappers?
All of this debate is really over whether or not something is no longer a thing if theyāre not a high quality version of that thing. I think itās a fairly shallow debate because a wobbly stool is still a stool. A shitty singer is still a musician. A broken chair is still a chair, and similarly just because someoneās a bad Christian doesnāt mean theyāre not a Christian.
Weāre not talking about the definition from Webster. Weāre talking about the definition from Jesus that was given to Saint Peter, the very first Pope. The definition here is not in question because the idea was defined by the people who founded the religion.
You donāt have to. Being a Christian isnāt only predicated on believing in Jesus. If that was the case, then Satan is also a Christian because heās personally met Jesus and, therefore, would be forced to ābelieveā in him. Luckily, Jesus himself supposedly stated and passed down what it means to be a Christian and those people supposedly wrote it down.
Also irrelevant. A priest who molests children cannot be a Christian whether they were inducted into the priesthood or whether they attend Mass because the very rules of the religion, as instructed by their figurehead, remove them from the group based on their actions. Itās repeated numerous times throughout the Bible that Christians will be known by their actions.
Itās not a bad argument, you just misunderstood it. The voice is an instrument.
No. Again, youāve misunderstood the argument. If I started a religion today and I said that the only qualification of the religion is that people have to kiss me on the mouth, then itās not possible for someone who has not kissed me on the mouth to be part of the religion. They can follow everything else Iāve said to the letter but, as long as they havenāt kissed me directly on the mouth, they cannot be a part of this particular religion because they are missing the central qualification. Itās not about whether someone is āgoodā or ābadā at doing something. Itās whether theyāre doing that thing at all.
Ok then, so who is this person that can āclaim to be a musicianā but isnāt?
As for the rest of your load of gish gallop: the bible, like all other texts, is up for interpretation and has been re-interpreted many times with many different takeaways. Itās not even the original text, was translated multiple times, and there is no way we can be assured that the King James Bible (Taylorās Version) is the real deal. Definitions from it arenāt more authoritative than Websterā¦theyāre even less so.
Someone who doesnāt play any instrument, including singing. There are unending numbers of people who will tell you theyāre not musicians because they donāt even try. Anyone who doesnāt try but tells you theyāre a musician is a liar. Thatās the point.
Nothing that Iāve said should have been overwhelming or inundating. My premise is incredibly simple. You just keep misunderstanding it repeatedly because it seems that youāre not even reading whatās being said.
Weāre not talking about interpretation from the Bible. Weāre talking about the definition used by Catholics that is part of their dogma and doctrine. Weāre talking about quoting the (supposed) words of Jesus in places where there is no debate on the meaning. You can try to dismiss and downplay what Iāve said all you want but none of what Iāve said is inaccurate whereas your response is full of inaccuracies and misunderstandings.
Lol, so someone who wants to claim to be a musician but canāt even sing badly (or rap badly, because rappers are still musicians)? Thatās who weāve excluded? Wow, what a useful definition for musician. š
Who is this person who wants to go around claiming musician creds and then canāt attempt a couple of bars?
Your argument just sucks dude, get over yourself.
EDIT: Thanks for the downvote!
Congratulations, you understand my example. Thatās my entire point. Someone who does not play or sing cannot possibly be a musician. If you donāt do the thing that defines the word that means āsomeone who does this thingā, then you canāt be that thing. Thatās the argument! If someone claims to be a Christian and doesnāt follow the example of the figurehead of Christianity, then they are not a Christian. If you donāt like the musician example, come up with a better one.
My argument doesnāt suck. You suck.
But given that bar thereās nobody that could claim to be a musician and then not just shit out a couple of bars and be one by your definition. So, again, your definition sucks (EDIT: and it happens to actually prove that what someone else is saying about āclaiming to be a Christian makes you a Christianā is essentially trueā¦because I can claim to be a musician and then sing a little happy birthday and I fit your definition).
Now itās āfollow the exampleā. So is that words? Actions? Both? Who determines what is āChrist-likeā? You? Are you the guy who determines who is and isnāt a Christian?
Right back at ya slick.
Are you being intentionally obtuse here or what? The definition isnāt about being capable of singing (even poorly). Itās about whether or not the person does that thing in their life. If you donāt like the music example, choose a different profession. For example, if I claim to be a golfer, I canāt be one if I donāt play golf. I canāt claim to be a golfer and then āshit out golf clubs and whack a ball aroundā. Youāre just being an asshole and arguing semantics over the fact that someone can use their voice. Normal, reasonable people understand that āshit[ting] out a couple barsā doesnāt make one a music anymore than hitting a golf ball at a party makes you a golfer. Stop being disingenuous.
What do you mean here? This implies that my position on this has changed somewhere. Iāve already clarified in my 1st response to you that ābelief in Jesusā isnāt enough to make someone Christian. Itās what started your whole fake confusion about being a musician. This kind of nonsense just leads me to believe that youāre not arguing in good faith here (which is already obvious but I try give people the benefit of the doubt).
To answer your question, Christ determines what is āChrist-likeā. I would think that was obvious and implied but now you just seem to be pretending to be confused.
And who is the arbiter of quality, and who draws the line in the sand?
I know this has all kind of devolved into a semantic argument, and a weird discussion about Popery, and I think at this point itās worth reiterating my initial point: If someone claims to belong to a religion, they do. Whether that claim enables anyone to make predictions or judgments about a personās other statements or actions is another question entirely.
I think this is 100% true for generic things like āChristianityā. When theyāre more official organizationsā¦still maybe, but if someoneās been excommunicated from something it makes sense to me from a practical standpoint that they no longer belong to that thing.