Most Americans who oppose Donald Trump agree the threat to democracy is the major issue of the 2024 election. But what, precisely, constitutes the threat? To most Democrats, the danger is that the election will install into power a president who admires autocratic regimes and wishes to replicate their methods by encouraging violence, using the government to punish independent media and prosecute his political enemies.

But another, smaller group of people say the threat to democracy is that there will only be one candidate running against Trump. They define “democracy” as giving voters in the general election the choice of multiple non-Trump options.

At the moment, Biden is facing potential spoiler campaigns from the center (No Labels) and the left (Cornel West.) The substantive critiques those two spoiler campaigns have with President Biden and the Democratic party are ideologically diametrical, but their process argument is the same.

“There is no true democracy in America when two ruling parties actively work to prevent voters from having choices,” says Peter Daou, West’s campaign manager. “Would you accept a restaurant with only two (rotten) items on the menu? Of course not.”

“The attempt to shut down No Labels is not an attack on the organization. It’s an attack on America’s democracy,” claims Joe Lieberman, one of the organizers of the centrist third-party campaign.

Notably, West and Lieberman alike aren’t merely making a procedural case that they require ballot access. They are arguing that even to denounce their campaigns imperils democracy. Lieberman’s comments came in response to the Democratic Party merely instructing its officials to attack No Labels as a threat to democracy.

Daou, in an interview with The New Yorker’s Isaac Chotiner, complained that the very act of criticizing his campaign is undemocratic. “Let’s say this cycle we also say the same thing, which is, ‘Oh, my God, we have to stop Donald Trump or we have to stop whoever the Republican might be,’” he theorized. “And this happens the next cycle and the next cycle and the next cycle. Where is the so-called democracy that we’re supposedly protecting or saving? What we’re doing is we’re crushing third parties. We are stifling democracy itself, Isaac.”

Daou and Lieberman are not simply asserting that third parties must have the right to appear on the ballot. They are insisting democracy requires that they run and that the major parties refrain from denouncing them as spoilers.

At the risk of insulting the reader’s intelligence, apparently, it is necessary to point out that the choice construction of a presidential election is nothing like a restaurant menu. When you order from a restaurant, every diner gets to eat whichever dish they want. For that reason, it’s in the restaurant’s interest to provide them with as many options as the restaurant can competently supply. When I go to a restaurant, I want the menu to offer me something that caters to my individual tastes.

To continue with the restaurant analogy, a presidential election is like a restaurant where, even though we have different choices on the menu, every diner gets the dish that gets ordered the most. That changes the incentive completely. In that kind of restaurant, I would neither expect nor even want a menu with lots of choices. I would want a menu designed to give me the choice closest to my preference. I happen to love Indian food, but putting chicken tikka and lamb vindaloo and saag paneer on a winner-take-all menu ballot might well mean that I wind up eating a bologna sandwich.

If we could live in a world where everybody got the president of their choice, I am confident nobody would care how many presidential candidates jumped into the race. The reason Democrats are concerned about the proliferation of candidates is that the election is going to result in just one president.

The nature of the American presidential election system, which lacks both parliamentary coalitions and ranked-choice voting, is that multiple candidates make it easier for a candidate to win with a minority of the vote. Democrats believe that the intensity of opinion around Trump — and the Democrats’ need to win a strong majority of moderates in order to have a majority — means that having multiple non-Trump candidates increases the odds of a Trump victory.

Third- and fourth-party enthusiasts seem (or perhaps just pretend) not to comprehend this dynamic at all and instead insist putting more choices on the November election is tantamount to “democracy.” Of course, you could expand choices by running more candidates in the primaries, which are open and decided by the voters. But neither the No Labels faction nor the Cornel West faction are willing to actually compete for the Democratic nomination. (Daou, revealingly, originally managed the campaign for Democratic candidate Marianne Williamson before giving up when she went nowhere).

The Wall Street Journal has repeatedly argued that criticizing No Labels is unpatriotic and anti-democratic. “President Biden said in a rare recent interview that No Labels has ‘a democratic right’ to do this, but ‘it’s going to help the other guy,’” complains an editorial this week. “Now comes a Super Pac trying to raise millions of dollars to assail No Labels, according to a fundraising pitch to prospective donors. What do these folks have against democracy?”

The Journal used to insist that wealthy donors spending money on ads to promote their point of view was a freedom so vital that campaign donations couldn’t even be regulated. Now, apparently, it’s a threat to democracy.

The Journal also professes to have no idea why anybody would even object to a No Labels candidacy. “What we don’t understand is the obloquy heaped on No Labels. Its members are patriots who want to spare the country from a campaign that offers four more years of the last two polarizing Presidencies,” pleaded a July editorial.

Of course, the Journal understands perfectly well why Democrats object to a spoiler campaign. “Yes, this does pose a threat to them because it’s likely to drain votes away from the Biden side,” boasted a Journal editorial writer in a video segment praising No Labels.

Lieberman’s own motives are only slightly more opaque. In an interview with CT Insider this summer, he dismissed polling that found a No Labels candidacy would pull more votes from Biden than Trump by insisting, “I haven’t seen exactly that one, that’s not our poll.” (As the interviewer noted, those numbers actually did come from his organization.)

And while Lieberman has been publicly assuring Democrats that No Labels would stand down if its candidate isn’t in position to win the election, he told CT Insider he might stay in the race anyway:

Even if we don’t think we’re likely to win, is there a constructive role for third party, a third ticket, bipartisan in which the American people can say by voting for that by partisan ticket, “Hey, Republicans and Democrats, we’re not buying what you’re selling, we want a third choice and No Labels is offering it to us.” So we may decide to run even if it’s not so sure that we can win, if we think we can have that kind of positive effect on whichever of the two candidates gets elected next November.

If your primary motivation in life is to exact revenge on the Democratic Party over personal slights, it’s easy to talk yourself into believing that you’re following some higher principle. But nobody should indulge their self-delusions. Skipping an open primary system to instead flood a first-past-the-post ballot with competing candidates to lower the plurality threshold for a terrifying authoritarian to win power has nothing to do with “democracy.”

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      Came here to say the same. Lieberman is a snake, and has been using his position as the 2000 VP Dem nominee to undermine progressive policy for more than two decades. I have no doubt he’s been bought and paid for by the GOP, I’m guessing right around the time he started rooting for the Iraq war (he was the biggest supporter on the Dem side at the time).

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    Voting your conscience is a privilege that not everyone gets. Some people are actually materially affected by the result.

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    I get what I think West is trying to do, but I think he’s doing it all wrong.

    West is trying to do what Bernie did, in that by running an effective progressive campaign as a Democrat, he did more to move this nations policies to the left than any political figure since Roosevelt.

    The issue is that Dr West isn’t running an effective campaign and isn’t running as a Democrat.

    He’s made incredibly large unforced errors by first partnering with the oeoples party, then the greens, both basically scam political groups.

    Those kinds of unforced errors are unacceptable in a political campaign. If he was running as a Democrat under the banner of “God dammit we need primaries and we need debates”, it would be a different story.

    I think he owes a conversation to the crew at clickbaity to explain why he’s doing what he’s doing. Cus otherwise he’s torching his legacy.

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      Yes. It’s important to point out. Groups that only run for the presidency are never worth considering. If they never run, much less win seats in the legislature. Then on the off chance they actually did win somehow. They’d be leading Jack shit, and Jack left town.

      You need the support of legislature to get anything done. And running against both groups that run it. Isn’t going to endear you to either of them. No matter how many things you might agree upon.

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    Bullshit. If we had ranked voting or a true multi-party system it would be fine.
    Jumping in on a presidential election really just narrows the margins in already close calls. I dislike Brandon but the other option is actually dangerous to our nation’s progress. This just isn’t the time and place for this.

    Do grass roots and align with one of the shitty parties to get something done.

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      If we had ranked voting or a true multi-party system it would be fine.

      But we don’t. By all means, vote for a constitutional ammendment to make that happen, but don’t ignore that doing it in the current system usually leaves us with the greater evil being the last one left standing.

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        Exactly. The same people who couldn’t get Bernie on the 2020 ballot are acting like it would be a piece of cake to change the rules now. Focus on what is right in front of you.

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        Yeah, as a trans person I don’t like Biden. But I’m going to vote for him because the alternative is looking increasingly like “get murdered by the state.”

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      This just isn’t the time and place for this.

      While I agree, to an extent, this mindset is the exact reason why we’re locked into a duopoly where very little gets changed for the better.

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      Employing ranked choice voting would disallow Dems from campaigning on “it’s us or lunacy.” They’d have to actually deliver and that’s not something they want to do.

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      I’m afraid theres no normal to go back to. Looking at the only opposition to the Dems, and the candidates they have lined up after Trump shows they’re all threats to democracy. We can keep pushing ranked choice but with the fact that the last 30 years of elections has been a steady pattern of R,D,R,D et cetra, its not like we have all the time in the world to push for ranked choice through either of the parties that it would directly weaken. Eventually someone much smarter and worse than Trump is coming, weather theres a spoiler candidate or not and I don’t see any solution where it doesn’t get worse before it gets better and thats terrifying.

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        It’s been longer than that. The last time someone technically not a Republican or Democrat won the presidency. Was 100 years ago. And technically they were just a republican who was pushed out of their primary.

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          I was more focusing on the back and forth, since HW bush, the office of the president, when changing, always changed to the other main party. Before HW Bush it was Reagan so it was Two R’s in a row but since then its been constant back and forth. Some people only got one term, but since then every time there was a new president, it was the opposite party of the last one, which leads me to believe its really really unlikely we dont see a Republican president in the next 2-3 presidential elections.

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    This isn’t new. Game theory & math have long precluded the success of a third party in our First Past the Post system.

    This cannot change until we get rid of First Past the Post. This is large part of the reason the #GOP has been banning other voting methods where they can. Currently, a vote for a third party candidate in the USA is a vote against the next most similar political party. Full stop.

    West is intelligent enough to understand this, but his ego won’t allow rational actions. Lieberman is just an evil opportunist.

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    That’s nice and but reading the first three paragraphs, I’m 95% sure that trying to have multiple parties for this election will just split the Democrats vote and have the Republicans win in a landslide, like how it happened back in 1860.

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      That’s the thrust of the argument, yes. Until we can get proper electoral reform to enable third parties without risking enabling the fascists, then we should revisit the question. But until then, we’ve seen what happens when we allow Republicans to control our government, and we can’t risk it again.

    • logicbomb@lemmy.world
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      The underlying problem is that the voting method we use is terrible, and forces people to vote strategically.

      When choosing a method of voting, one of the important things is to minimize voter disappointment in the result.

      If you and your spouse adore third-party candidate C, but are OK with candidate B, and you believe candidate A is the worst thing ever, and so you both “vote your conscience” and it turns out that A won by 1 vote over B, I think your disappointment in the result would register off the scales, and it’s a surefire thing that you’d begin voting strategically in the next election. That wouldn’t mean that you were bullying yourself.

      The point I’m making is that the people who are trying to convince people to vote against their conscience aren’t always trying to harm those people. They are trying to work around the First-Past-The-Post system that we have, which sometimes maximizes voter disappointment.

      We desperately need to reform and get something like ranked choice or approval ballots. Because that’s the real problem.

      Edit: @Mammal I noticed that this comment received a downvote so quickly after I posted it, that I don’t think it is possible for you to have even read it before downvoting. I presume that came from you. Very naughty.

      • Mammal@lemmy.world
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        Here’s the thing: Arguing Biden vs 3rd party is stupid.

        My point is that trying to bully people into voting a certain way is counterproductive. It objectively does not work.

        If you can’t convince someone to support a candidate based on material conditions and life experience, you certainly aren’t going to change their mind by trying to convince them that voting a certain way will make other people vote that way.

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          My point is that you’re trying to blame people, saying what they’re doing is “bullying”.

          This is typical of garbage politics. Even though the real problem is the policy, the first thing you do is blame the people. It’s an old trick, meant to deceive people.

          Plastics industry doesn’t like how they were proven to be bad for the environment, and people are lobbying to ban plastics? “Let’s pretend that the problem is the people. We’ll say like the problem is that people aren’t recycling!”

          The only bullies are the ones who don’t want to change the policy in favor of what’s best for the constituents.

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        And what about when I find both candidate A and B to be incredibly distasteful? If I vote for C and terrible B wins over terrible A, I don’t feel disappointed in the way I voted because I voted my conscience. I know this from experience.

        I’ll agree that the voting system is a part of the problem, but then maybe Democrats should get a little more serious about reforming that process. I don’t see that as likely since that would challenge their duopoly privilege, but would love them to prove me wrong.

        In the meantime, if a party wants me to vote for their candidate, they should put up a candidate I can support. I will not vote for someone that doesn’t represent my values.

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          I’ll agree that the voting system is a part of the problem, but then maybe Democrats should get a little more serious about reforming that process.

          Based on this, you are saying that the choice is not between two equally terrible main parties. If I had the views you seem to be showing in your comment here, the first thing I’d do is support the Democrats over the Republicans, and once the Republican party has been destroyed, then I might start supporting somebody over the Democrats.

          But I have a suspicion that you’re intentionally trying to deceive us about your true views. Nobody who supports the Democrats today would say that the Democrats and Republicans are similarly terrible. And no clear-minded third party supporter would say that the party of insurrections, dictatorships, and treason is equally as bad as the Democrats.

          No, those are things that Republicans say when they are pretending to have other political views. Because it’s hard to see things from other peoples’ points of view, and it’s easy to trip yourself up like this.

          • Sybil@lemmy.world
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            they don’t need to be equally terrible for them both to be unacceptable

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              They’d have to be in the same ballpark of equally terrible, which is not the situation we’re in in America. I’ll revisit this conclusion if someday the Democrats try to violently overthrow the government, but for now, the “both sides are bad” argument is simply a fantasy held by American conservatives.

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                I’ll revisit this conclusion if someday the Democrats try to violently overthrow the government,

                fort Sumter

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                  Ah. A point that wouldn’t convince anybody of anything. You didn’t even believe it was a good point when you wrote it.

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          I’d like to note that in this situation where you’ve expressed you don’t like either major party, you only believe one of those parties should reform the situation (Democratic), which means that inherently you know one is acting more in good faith than the other. I doubt it even occurred to you that a Republican would want to reform the FPTP process because you know they won’t do it and have no incentive to.

          If you implictly know that there’s a lesser of two evils and yet choose to vote third party in the general, it’s just as much on you when the worse of the two evils wins.

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            one is acting more in good faith than the other.

            wrong. one pretends to care about my values. the other doesn’t. neither of them do.

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              You’re judging perceived intentions on the same level as actual actions. This is comparing apples and oranges.

              There’s a reason why our criminal law punishes things that people have actually done, and there’s a reason why people who commit more serious offenses receive harsher punishments.

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                whether the democrats mean to run prison plantations or they do it by accident, neither is acceptable.

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                  Just because you can’t find some criminal act doesn’t mean that it makes sense to invent ones and then pretend they are real.

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      Our system is bullshit and strategic voting is necessary. That’s not politics or being mean, that’s just math.

      I hate it, too. Doesn’t change it.

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      If voting your conscience is so important to you. Then if you find yourself not agreeing with either of the two likely candidates. But one of them and their party wants to take away or hinder your ability to vote. Then your conscience dictates you vote for the one most likely to win who does not want to do that. Anything else isn’t voting your conscience. It’s stupidity.

      Vote early, vote often, vote your conference in the primary. But when it comes to the general election. For God’s sake vote for the group most likely to win that isn’t the worst possible candidate.

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        your conscience dictates you vote for

        someone who I think should win.

        it’s incredibly condescending to tell someone what their conscience dictates.

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          You’re damn right it’s condescending. And I’m glad you could get that Captain obvious. But can you defend voting for who you think should win. Despite them never being able to win. And thus actual fascist taking office in part because of your actions? Whining that something is condescending doesn’t make it less true. It just makes you unable to address what was said.

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            But can you defend voting for who you think should win.

            yeah: they’re the best person for the job.

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            actual fascist taking office in part because of your actions

            that happens whether they’re on the red hand or the blue hand.

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    Run better candidates and people won’t say “fuck it” and vote for someone else.

    Also, calling them spoiler candidates is ridiculous and makes you sound like a child. They don’t run to stop your guy from winning. They run because your guy sucks. The Republicans complain about the same thing with the libertarian party and the constitution party.

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      Nah. People will always do that. And they’ll still be behaving ignorantly and childishly.

      And calling a candidate that stands no chance of winning a spoiler candidate. Is a factual observation. Treating them like anything else would be ridiculous.

      Sanders has shown how it’s done. He and his candidacy have done more to pull Democrats leftward than any one or anything since FDR. And accomplished more than any 3rd party ever. And all while being a Democrat.

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        And accomplished more than any 3rd party eve

        the prohibition party got a constitutional amendment passed

        if you don’t know what you’re talking about you can just not say anything.

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          They didn’t have anyone in Congress to pass it for them. So how do they accomplish that? Oh Congress passed it for them? Seems like you’re the one that doesn’t know what you’re talking about. People accomplish things all the time through the established parties. But never without them. Strange how that works out. But not strange that you have no idea what you’re talking about.

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            it seems like you’re just admitting I’m right and pretending that you were right. this is the weirdest conversation.

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              And yet you can’t address an actual thing that I’m saying. You just make baseless claims. All I have to do is point out that they didn’t actually get anything past it was the people in the legislature that got it passed and your bullshit Point blows apart. You can’t just make the claim without pointing out where my statement doesn’t hold. Learn to debate. It’s truly sad that people like yourself are perceived to represent leftists. We are honestly so much better than people like yourself. Much more mature than 12-year-olds like you. And yet they always choose Bad actors like you to represent us.

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                Learn to debate

                I don’t care to debate. I’m happy just correcting you, even though you never take corrections graciously.

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                  You’ve never corrected me LOL you just reeeeeee like a troll. And the state of post just proves that’s what you are. I may have been a bit too generous implying you had the maturity of a 12 year old.

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                It’s truly sad that people like yourself are perceived to represent leftists. We are honestly so much better than people like yourself.

                do you know how I know that you’re not a leftist?

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                what I said was true, what you said was false. you are the one making baseless claims.

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                this is basically a bunch of false accusations and name-calling.

                We are honestly so much better than people like yourself. Much more mature than 12-year-olds like you.