- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
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Wow. Did not expect Tumblr to be doing better than Twitter.
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I’m guessing from the unlimited money hose that was Silicon Valley venture capital.
Problem is, and the reason we’re hearing about this now, the money is being redirected to AI, and all these negative income companies don’t have enough capital to keep going.
That’s why it seems like the entire Internet is going to shit all at once. The corporate money that tried to monopolize everything we access online has been cut off.
But the good news is that compute, bandwidth , and storage has gotten cheap enough to host powerful FOSS alternatives ourselves.
I’m cautiously hopeful this leads to a golden era of the open Internet.
We had the golden era, and we squandered it by chasing centralized platforms and raising up the shittiest people and corporations.
What we will hopefully see is a resurgent era, but the internet will never be as open as it was ever again. The corporate interests run too deep, the giants have too many levers to control how people experience the internet, and they’re going to abuse that.
And I promise in like 5-8 years, were going to start seeing heavy lobbying against decentralized platforms after some instance gets caught with child porn or something. It’ll be right around the same time conservatives are floating regulation of VPNs to “protect the children” or some shit.
or next time Spez hackes lemmy.world, he uploads that as sabotage.
You just brought up the elephant in the room that I’ve been wondering about after learning about and joining the fediverse. Decentralization is great but what about instances that support “terrorism” for example. One mans terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter, how will moderation of those instances be possible? Some instances can defederate from others but the content will still be there, and as you said the platform will start getting a reputation for cp or terrorist networks.
If they had just sherlocked xKit and left the site alone — not adding the live video shit, etc — most users wouldn’t care about the ads. I swear it’s like every social network is just copying each other, remember when everyone added stories because of Snapchat, and how everyone is adding TikTok style videos now? Tumblr’s biggest mistake was doing that, it should’ve just stayed as it was. People are on tumblr because they like tumblr. If they wanted TikTok, they’d download TikTok.
Tumblr was THE place to be for artists. Someone should make a federated alternative.
What I want to know about these “unprofitable” tech companies is where all the money is going? Wikipedia, which is run entirely on donations, has an operating budget of ~$150 million. Reddit, Twitter, etc… make many times this amount and even with the greater number of employees and salaries it still sounds like some creative Hollywood accounting that they’re unprofitable. It feels like a big chunk of money is just going to investors/C-classes so they can just say they’re not actually making any money while the big players get their payday.
That was my reaction when I heard Spez whine about reddit not being profitable.
How much money did you waste on bullshit? If you’d just focused on running the damn platform I instead of reinventing it into the monstrosity it is now, how much better might you be doing?
That valuable and incredibly useful NFT tech ain’t gonna develop itself! /s
Trend chasing like this always shows me what CEOs are just morons with no vision
It’s a bit like the whole “infrastructure ain’t sexy” argument. As the chief executive administrator, you’re paid to “strategize”, when sometimes, you just need to keep the engines running and the bills paid, but in today’s society that’s not praised. You need to capture people and investors’ ADHD-span, make megalomanous plans that can’t possibly ever come true or be some guy who fires everyone to attempt to grow profit margins.
What this number suggests to me is that Tumblr has revenue less than 20 million dollars. I figure:
- about 100 employees
- based in new York
- average $100,000 salary
- 10m annually in humans
- 2-3m annually for office expenses
- 20-30m annually for hosting
Some of these numbers can be up or down, but when I worked at a similar company in New York, we had operating expenses in the same range. (Coincidentally, we had revenue on the same range, and got sold off in a fire sale)
$100k avg salary for a New York tech company? The lowest level employees there almost certainly make well above that. If we’re talking avg salary it’s probably at least $200k.
Really good point, and great reminder that I don’t appreciate Wikipedia enough. They’ve been doing the same thing for 20+ years with no ads and only the occasional ask for money. And I think they know better than to try and make money or go public when all of their content is user-generated.
In big tech 30 million is a rounding error
Is Tumblr really big tech though?
In a distant past it was…
Maybe it’s time to socialize social media? All these activitypub-based projects are open source, open governance, and many of them are receiving government grants already, so let’s just pay the server costs via taxpayer money and call it a public service.
Putting Tumblr on ActivityPub could be interesting and potentially save it, but there’s so much deleted content from when it was in its prime that I’m not sure if it’s even worth it. The platform is so dead.
That said, giving taxpayer money to private social media businesses is the worst idea ever. In the first place, public money should mean public code.
For sure! My comment was ambiguous; I meant we could consider running government-backed instances of open-source, standards-based social media, not “let’s give tumblr a pile of money”.
A government-sponsored instance could be interesting, but I’m not sure what value it would bring. Also it would probably turn instantly into worse than Facebook with toxicity.
I could see one that focused on CDC / nih data and communications. I use clinicaltrials.gov all the time for work to look at study designs for big clinical trials, could be cool to have an instance that covered info from there. I could see another one maybe for weather and traffic related data from NOAA, state highway authorities, etc. maybe another space related one for NASA and space force (lol). Others for the military branches, it goes on and on. The government has social media accounts for most of these services already, could give the fediverse a big boost if their content is directly hosted on government servers
Probably the worst idea I’ve ever heard, we need less social media, not more.
You can do your part by deleting your account now!
That’s where the addiction part comes in, life’s boring without it but I can recognise it’s been a net negative for the world.
Thanks for being chill in the replies. I read this back just now and it came off a lot more hostile than the jokey/flip tone I had in mind. I don’t want you to delete your account; I like social media and I wanna hear your perspective, I just meant to kid about posting comments creating more social media which is against your stated intent.
I thought you were being funny :D
DW, I never take anything as hostile really, it felt like a sarcastic joke to me (I’m British) but I wanted to get into a more in-depth discussion which I ended up getting because of your joke. So congratulations.
Read and comment to my other replies if you’d like, I’d just be repeating myself here although there are far more things wrong with social media that I didn’t bring up.
I don’t think so, it brought some issues to mainstream attention that otherwise would be left to rot for another decade (or even longer). I’d argue that’s worth a lot and not necessarily offset into the negative by the other things social media has done
What issues could only be address with social media but not normal methods of getting across news?
It’s ruined generations, Gen Z is fucked,only caring about internet clout, whatever the younger generation is called is even more fucked, their entirer lives documented and uploaded to the internet by their shitty parents, including their most embarrassing moments. Boomers are being brain washed too.
Like, fuck. Just think about all the misinformation and conspiracies that have been able to thrive online because of social media. It’s a big part of why society is going down the pooper, imo.
The only positive really is it kills our bordem, but we had to sacrifice our dopamine receptors.
Hey man, I’m no clinical psychologist, but your comment gives off flags that you may be depressed. Please remember that we love you and the world will be just fine since the collapsing climate will kill everyone slowly and everything we do doesn’t matter.
lemmy is antisocial media
So that might explain why the promise to federate with the fediverse (made late last year during the twitter migration) hasn’t gone anywhere.
Tumblr said they would federate???
Yep, ages ago, and we’ve all been wondering what happened to it. With Threads promising to federate soon, it’s reminded us that we’re not anti-corporation as much as we are anti-Meta, and that we were hopeful not long ago of many not-entirely-evil-companies joining the fediverse. Medium and Mozilla have set some things up, as has flipboard, and tumblr were supposed to be a big addition … that just hasn’t eventuated.
Thanks for the reply.
we’re not anti-corporation as much as we are anti-Meta
Agreed. I’d like to see Tumblr join the fediverse, though recently it seems to be focusing on Tumblr Live rather than such a big change as federating. Interesting with Medium as well.
Maybe this says something about my awareness of the world: I didn’t know Threads wasn’t the first.
Both the medium and flipboard CEOs are relatively active on mastodon and seem to be all in on the fediverse. The flipboard app can be even be used as a fediverse app. Don’t know how it works for lemmy or kbin … it’s probably mastodon only.
I wonder if that might also be partially because Tumblr has no control over other instances being ok with (appropriately marked) nsfw content. And of course, since about 2019, Tumblr has been very anti-nsfw…
But also yeah, losing $30 million annually isn’t great. Maybe Tumblr should go all-in on federation though? Like, to the point of encouraging users to leave/offload from Tumblr servers and do federation? Wouldn’t be easy, but if they want a longer then solution…
When you ban porn on your massively popular site for porn & drive off a massive segment of your userbase epic style
That was the old owners. The new owners have stated that they want to bring porn back but it’s not really feasible because payment processors are anti-porn.
God it’s ridiculous how much power we give to banks. If the content is not illegal it should not be up to the payment processors what content a web service can provide.
I think it’s because when it is illegal it’s ultra illegal and ultra terrible. Even then I question how much of it is already pretty sus.
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You’re telling me I can now get my fix of Twinks from Tumblr again?!
Bit late for that turn eh?
I assume payment processors is also the reason why Verizon banned porn, although i don’t think they talked about it like the wurrent owners do.
Wordpress bought Tumblr in 2019 for, allegedly, 3M$, which is a huge discount, and they’ve done a good job running the place so far.
Would that be genuinelly losing $30M a year or would it be only “losing” it in accounting terms because of paying more than $30M a year for “trademark use rights” to a company based in an offshore tax haven, said company being nothing more than a metal plate on a door next to the plates for 100s of such “companies” and 100% owned by the very same parent company as Tumblr?
Because if there’s one thing which is common in Tech companies is using intelectual property legislation and convoluted corporate structures to create accounting losses for the purposed of paying no taxes (and publicly claiming poverty).
Same thing in Hollywood (hence the expression “Hollywood Accounting”), by the way, which is how they just recently claimed they “couldn’t pay more because they were losing money” to the actors’ union representatives during recent negotiations.
Mind you, such accounting trickeries can be undone by Courts (which can just deem that the “for tax evasion only” daughter company is not actually a real company set up to do business, so all those “intellectual property costs” used to create accounting losses legally become just an internal transfer of money within the same company, hence not a cost, hence do not reduce declared profits and the tax on them.
However there is no actual Political will to do so, which is why even though the laws for it are in the books, they’re almost never applied.
Would that be genuinelly losing $30M a year or would it be only “losing” it in accounting terms
this was my instant thought on the headline. what business that is truly losing $30,000,000 every year is going to stay open?
The WNBA. It operates at a loss. Been that way for the last 25 years.
Sports associations are not real businesses. Not a single one of them has to pay their own bills, so all of their accounting is farcical. The NBA, NFL, NHL, and most any other sports organization gets a tremendous amount of subsidy from local governments, a special tax status, and Monopoly protections.
None of these things would be nearly as profitable if they had to buy their own stadiums, pay their own salaries, and pay everyone in the organization properly. National sports leagues are a racket. If the WNBA only loses 30 million a year, that seems like a drop in the bucket compared to what these other ones are costing us with their taxpayer funded multibillion dollar stadiums that some prison company or student loan shark gets to put their name on.
A lot of sports teams claim to be perpetually unprofitable on paper…
But they’ll still sell for billions
With all that being said… Between ticket sales, merch, etc. the NBA generates $10 billion in revenue per year.
The WNBA generates $60 million a year at a $10 million dollar loss and has never turned a profit in 25 years.
"2018, Adam Silver, Commissioner of the NBA, said that the WNBA had lost an average of $10 million per year for every year of its existence, including the posting of a $12 million loss in 2017. "
Imagine closing that league down when the top 30 or so NBA players combined make around $1,000,000,000 a year.
I don’t see the correlation bro
WNBA is the NBA, it’s the same organization. They make more money than they know what to do with.
The WNBA is not a profitable league and operates at a $10 million dollar loss every year.
Did you skip my comment completely? WNBA is a part of the NBA. They’re not operating at a loss, they are a cost incurred by the NBA in order to promote basketball to a female viewership.
It’s like saying a marketing team operates at a loss because ads cost a company money. It’s just the wrong way to look at it. Usually the people who are adamant on phrasing it such are misogynists, which I really hope you aren’t, and you can understand what I’m saying
The WNBA is not part of the NBA. They have had their own set of owners since 2002. They operate at a loss every year and the NBA covers it as their sister league. Throwing out buzzwords like "misogynist’ is based on feelings. What I am telling you is a fact.
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But none of that affects the amount of money they lose.
In fact the CEO of the parent company has been pretty transparent about cost cutting, and I’d bet 30m is probably the lowest yearly losses for Tumblr.
I know people want to make this a moral victory, like the losses are the result of bad community management for Reddit/Twitter/Tumblr but that’s just not true. They were dumpster fires business-wise before they shat on their community, and they were dumpster fires after.
No one has cracked the code on how to make a profitable social media company. The two choices are either community funded (like the Fediverse), or steal all the data like Meta, and arguably the second option isn’t really an option for anyone because Meta would eat your lunch all day everyday.
Actually, not quite. Tumblr has been chugging along pretty steadily. It’s not dead, it’s just not making money. Reddit wasn’t either
Tumblr is still just as fun and funny as before, if not better, without all the underaged people.
But it is extremely slow in comparison.
who could have ever predicted such a dramatic downfall oh no
Internet would be dead if porn was banned in the 90s
They put ads into their mobile app, between every 2nd post, that are literally scamming users to look at or click them, and they still come out negative?! Jeez. If ads are really bringing in so little money, maybe its time to drop the whole “free service with ads” business model and go back to subscriptions.
I would pay $20 per month for a curated list of subscriptions to various news sources. The key word here is curated. If I subscribe to a news site, I don’t want to hear about celebrity gossip. If I subscribe to a new music page, I don’t want to see Beyonce on it. If I sign up for arthouse movie news, I don’t want to hear about Pixar.
We’ve completely removed the idea of curators because “gatekeeping” and now we are stuck with what amounts to a corporate payola funded by the biggest players in the game.
Woah, Tumblr is still around? I’m not surprised they’re losing that much money. They’re just caught in the middle of the short form journal of tweets/toots/threads and the photo blogging of IG.
Tumblr is still popular with the 2000s LiveJournal crowd, i.e. people who need 500 words not 500 characters or 500x500 pixels.
Mastodon gives you 500 words.
Really? 3,000 characters or more? By default?
It’s still around, and doing quite well at least from a community perspective. It’s an underdog platform and the users want to keep it that way for the most part. The problem, though, is that the staff don’t know how to monetize it properly. The thing they push the most is an ad-free subscriptions service which is already doomed to fail because everyone uses adblockers.
I’m genuinely curious, which monetization strategy would you use? Trophies?
The idea of a monthly service is not a bad one, but they need to offer something other than a thing everyone already uses for free. Tumblr already has other numerous one-time purchases that could be included in a monthly sub, like badges, Blaze, the crabs, etc. Getting one free Blaze per month with your sub, free crabs to give out, higher upload limits, stuff like that. A sub would need to leverage their existing features.
I don’t get how there’s so many different companies failing to make a profit and staying afloat, isn’t Uber also running at a loss?
Do we have a remind me bot yet?
I think we’re going to discover that the current economic crisis is mostly a media campaign to try to stem the incoming flood of union wins.
Edit: I am also aware of the real recession economics happening - but the impacts are, so far, wildly lighter than we’ve been forcasting to follow the pandemic. Yet we are not seeing “recession is way less harsh than predicted” in the media.
I’m sure some of that can be explained by gloom and doom sells, and the tendency of doomsday cults to move their dates.
But I also believe we’re seeing a coordinated anti union “keep your head down and keep your job” media campaign, right now.
Unless they’re just pissing away money on high level management I cannot imagine how all of these social media companies have been unprofitable.
