And how do non-old people navigate the web? I mean I get it, you don’t need to google the Wikipedia article about the French Revolution… You can ask AI. But how do you find business hours for the repair shop downtown? Which website sells the concert tickets? News from yesterday? The forum that tells you if 32GB of RAM fit into your laptop?
Hours and menus normally come from Maps. News often comes from social media, unfortunately. But Google rarely helps me there either. Concert tickets is probably an app or venue website (but I don’t really go to many concerts because fuck Ticketmaster).
Not that I don’t Google stuff, but it’s way less useful than it used to be.
I’m over fifty (though fuck does it feel unreal to say that).
In my case it’s Apple Maps, but to the larger question, to me it’s about the web search, which they have a custom algorithm and a monetary stake in gaming the results. You can certainly look at it differently, but “Googling” to answer questions is no longer useful the way it once was.
(but I don’t really go to many concerts because fuck Ticketmaster)
You can often (though not always) buy tickets directly from the venue in person or over the phone. You avoid Ticketmaster fees this way, though they may end up emailing you the ticket in Ticketmaster anyway.
Sure. I’m living in a different filter bubble anyways. Ticketmaster seems to be big but it isn’t the only platform where I live. I guess I’m not really mainstream and I go to smaller concerts, festivals, art museums. And a lot of them have different ticket services. So I usually end up googling them and following the trail of links to the individual ticket shop.
I’m 10 years younger than you. Maybe a bit more. I grew up with the rise of social media. I still despise how it confines me into a filter bubble. Makes my world smaller (despite connecting me with the world) by choosing my perspective. I take care to occasionally read local news. And not take my political perspective from platforms with an algorithm tailored to shape my perspective.
But I get it. Not everyone does it like me. But I think we have a big problem with algorithms and media literacy.
The filter bubble is absolutely terrible. I miss the days of having basically 3 equivalent TV news channels, plus newspapers. I trusted all of them, more or less, and their audience was everyone so they were fairly balanced and reasonable. These days everyone self-sorts into one media bubble or another because it’s completely fragmented and the people in other bubbles are painful to hear (“let’s just get rid of cars and force everyone to live in big cities!” or “Let’s talk to this former paste-eater about vaccines.”). It’s not that I want to live in a bubble, it’s that people are fucking crazy and I don’t want it around me.
But Google isn’t helping any of that. Google is full of ads and SEO and most of the time I go looking for things like product reviews there’s nothing remotely trustworthy in the results. I trust Wikipedia over a generic google search about most topics.
It’s so bad, I think I could get by with about a dozen bookmarks instead of Google. The signal to noise ratio for the internet as a whole is getting awful, and Google is keeping pace.
Sure. Mainstream media comes with it’s very own set of issues. And I’m glad I have the internet available. But social media is bound to get you engaged in some drama or bubble instead of objective truth. I don’t have any solution to offer. And I think the internet in general, is bound to get worse for some time to come. More AI, more noise, misinformation, enshittification. I think we’re in for a dry spell in the near future. Maybe it get’s better after that with some technological or societal advances. Maybe not, we’re going to see. But it seems to me there are some people out there wishing for a better situation.
Well I’ll disagree with one thing: I give zero shits about gossip or internet drama. I’m not oblivious to it but I don’t care about the personal drama. There are trolls and heels of course, and much is made of them, but I don’t care.
Yeah I wish the situation was better, but it’s not going to get better. You said you’re happy to have the internet as options, and that’s what killed traditional journalism. We are probably all less well informed on the big stuff and much better informed on niche things these days. This is the direction of the world. Not global community and rising tides lifting all ships, but fracturing of the zeitgeist and growing division.
Good luck, world. I don’t know how to fix you, but I have faith that coming generations will figure something out after I’m gone, even if the future looks more like the Morlocks and Eloi from The Time Machine than Starfleet from Star Trek.
With “drama” I was going for the built-in drive towards negativity and sensationalist stuff. Like people complaining and sharing outrageous news that stirs them up. I think it’s well established that people are more incentivised to engage with content they disagree with, rather than nuanced or positive things. I’m no exception. I’ve had a superb weekend, did a day trip with some friends, sports (climbing) etc. But somehow I don’t talk about that on the internet but end up painting a dark picture about the near future. And my real-world conversations aren’t like that. In face to face conversations I also talk about mundane stuff, what made my day, recommend positive things to friends… I think we have some unhealthy dynamics baked into internet talk, due to the way our platforms are set up and due to how attention works.
Sure. The internet killed newspapers. And there is no easy fix. We’d need easy payment methods, value the labour of the journalists… And that wasn’t available when this happened. And nowadays we have a few other issues on top. Originally, the internet wasn’t supposed to do any of that. It was supposed to connect people all around the globe. Make information available to everyone…
I think a lot of the unhealthy dynamics aren’t baked into the internet itself, but due to people making everything about money and advertising. I think we (theoretically) could do without. And make the internet a very different place. It doesn’t seem this is happening. But I still got some places (Linux forums etc) with a very different atmosphere. I’m not sure where we’ll end up in like 15 years. Maybe after reaching rock bottom. I’ve also watched and read too much science fiction. Currently it looks to me like we’re headed for the 2006 movie Idiocracy. But H G Wells is fine, too.
With “drama” I was going for the built-in drive towards negativity and sensationalist stuff.
Oh I got you. Yeah. That sucks. I’m probably going to have to keep myself less informed. I spent the first year of Trump arguing with people that every little thing he did wasn’t the literal worst thing in the world. He fired a bunch of political appointees, just like every President, and it was doomsday for a week. I can’t handle the handwringing every single day.
Even late in his presidency when he actually was doing terrible shit on a constant basis was so stressful. I swear it aged me ten years. I’m not doing that shit again.
We’d need easy payment methods, value the labour of the journalists
Yeah. The incentives are all fucked up in journalism now. No one pays for just solid news, it looks like. They pay for sensational bullshit with their wallets and attention.
I think a lot of the unhealthy dynamics aren’t baked into the internet itself, but due to people making everything about money and advertising
Yeah. Any fix which comes from changing people isn’t a fix at all. We aren’t going to change except through conditioning. Maybe education but that’s such a fucking uphill battle right now itself.
Worst part is, other than some wankery in the internet, most people aren’t interested in reflecting on this or making any attempt to solve it. I’m worried we’re headed into a cycle war and conflict after a hundred years of relative peace. Maybe that will change things, though that means change is in the other side of a lot of pain and suffering (which is a great catalyst for change but I don’t want my kids or grandkids to have to go through that).
The thing with that is, it happily makes up business hours and venues. And you end up in some dark alley without any entertainment. Or a different kind than you envisioned…I doubt someone does this more than once or twice…
And how do non-old people navigate the web? I mean I get it, you don’t need to google the Wikipedia article about the French Revolution… You can ask AI. But how do you find business hours for the repair shop downtown? Which website sells the concert tickets? News from yesterday? The forum that tells you if 32GB of RAM fit into your laptop?
Hours and menus normally come from Maps. News often comes from social media, unfortunately. But Google rarely helps me there either. Concert tickets is probably an app or venue website (but I don’t really go to many concerts because fuck Ticketmaster).
Not that I don’t Google stuff, but it’s way less useful than it used to be.
I’m over fifty (though fuck does it feel unreal to say that).
If it’s Google maps, wouldn’t it still be considered googling since it used the same search engine?
In my case it’s Apple Maps, but to the larger question, to me it’s about the web search, which they have a custom algorithm and a monetary stake in gaming the results. You can certainly look at it differently, but “Googling” to answer questions is no longer useful the way it once was.
Under the “advanced” dropdown swap the search to ‘verbatim’ and that gets you like 80% back to the way Google used to work
You can often (though not always) buy tickets directly from the venue in person or over the phone. You avoid Ticketmaster fees this way, though they may end up emailing you the ticket in Ticketmaster anyway.
Sure. I’m living in a different filter bubble anyways. Ticketmaster seems to be big but it isn’t the only platform where I live. I guess I’m not really mainstream and I go to smaller concerts, festivals, art museums. And a lot of them have different ticket services. So I usually end up googling them and following the trail of links to the individual ticket shop.
I’m 10 years younger than you. Maybe a bit more. I grew up with the rise of social media. I still despise how it confines me into a filter bubble. Makes my world smaller (despite connecting me with the world) by choosing my perspective. I take care to occasionally read local news. And not take my political perspective from platforms with an algorithm tailored to shape my perspective.
But I get it. Not everyone does it like me. But I think we have a big problem with algorithms and media literacy.
The filter bubble is absolutely terrible. I miss the days of having basically 3 equivalent TV news channels, plus newspapers. I trusted all of them, more or less, and their audience was everyone so they were fairly balanced and reasonable. These days everyone self-sorts into one media bubble or another because it’s completely fragmented and the people in other bubbles are painful to hear (“let’s just get rid of cars and force everyone to live in big cities!” or “Let’s talk to this former paste-eater about vaccines.”). It’s not that I want to live in a bubble, it’s that people are fucking crazy and I don’t want it around me.
But Google isn’t helping any of that. Google is full of ads and SEO and most of the time I go looking for things like product reviews there’s nothing remotely trustworthy in the results. I trust Wikipedia over a generic google search about most topics.
It’s so bad, I think I could get by with about a dozen bookmarks instead of Google. The signal to noise ratio for the internet as a whole is getting awful, and Google is keeping pace.
Sure. Mainstream media comes with it’s very own set of issues. And I’m glad I have the internet available. But social media is bound to get you engaged in some drama or bubble instead of objective truth. I don’t have any solution to offer. And I think the internet in general, is bound to get worse for some time to come. More AI, more noise, misinformation, enshittification. I think we’re in for a dry spell in the near future. Maybe it get’s better after that with some technological or societal advances. Maybe not, we’re going to see. But it seems to me there are some people out there wishing for a better situation.
Well I’ll disagree with one thing: I give zero shits about gossip or internet drama. I’m not oblivious to it but I don’t care about the personal drama. There are trolls and heels of course, and much is made of them, but I don’t care.
Yeah I wish the situation was better, but it’s not going to get better. You said you’re happy to have the internet as options, and that’s what killed traditional journalism. We are probably all less well informed on the big stuff and much better informed on niche things these days. This is the direction of the world. Not global community and rising tides lifting all ships, but fracturing of the zeitgeist and growing division.
Good luck, world. I don’t know how to fix you, but I have faith that coming generations will figure something out after I’m gone, even if the future looks more like the Morlocks and Eloi from The Time Machine than Starfleet from Star Trek.
With “drama” I was going for the built-in drive towards negativity and sensationalist stuff. Like people complaining and sharing outrageous news that stirs them up. I think it’s well established that people are more incentivised to engage with content they disagree with, rather than nuanced or positive things. I’m no exception. I’ve had a superb weekend, did a day trip with some friends, sports (climbing) etc. But somehow I don’t talk about that on the internet but end up painting a dark picture about the near future. And my real-world conversations aren’t like that. In face to face conversations I also talk about mundane stuff, what made my day, recommend positive things to friends… I think we have some unhealthy dynamics baked into internet talk, due to the way our platforms are set up and due to how attention works.
Sure. The internet killed newspapers. And there is no easy fix. We’d need easy payment methods, value the labour of the journalists… And that wasn’t available when this happened. And nowadays we have a few other issues on top. Originally, the internet wasn’t supposed to do any of that. It was supposed to connect people all around the globe. Make information available to everyone…
I think a lot of the unhealthy dynamics aren’t baked into the internet itself, but due to people making everything about money and advertising. I think we (theoretically) could do without. And make the internet a very different place. It doesn’t seem this is happening. But I still got some places (Linux forums etc) with a very different atmosphere. I’m not sure where we’ll end up in like 15 years. Maybe after reaching rock bottom. I’ve also watched and read too much science fiction. Currently it looks to me like we’re headed for the 2006 movie Idiocracy. But H G Wells is fine, too.
Oh I got you. Yeah. That sucks. I’m probably going to have to keep myself less informed. I spent the first year of Trump arguing with people that every little thing he did wasn’t the literal worst thing in the world. He fired a bunch of political appointees, just like every President, and it was doomsday for a week. I can’t handle the handwringing every single day.
Even late in his presidency when he actually was doing terrible shit on a constant basis was so stressful. I swear it aged me ten years. I’m not doing that shit again.
Yeah. The incentives are all fucked up in journalism now. No one pays for just solid news, it looks like. They pay for sensational bullshit with their wallets and attention.
Yeah. Any fix which comes from changing people isn’t a fix at all. We aren’t going to change except through conditioning. Maybe education but that’s such a fucking uphill battle right now itself.
Worst part is, other than some wankery in the internet, most people aren’t interested in reflecting on this or making any attempt to solve it. I’m worried we’re headed into a cycle war and conflict after a hundred years of relative peace. Maybe that will change things, though that means change is in the other side of a lot of pain and suffering (which is a great catalyst for change but I don’t want my kids or grandkids to have to go through that).
Have a good one, mate.
News from yesterday? You mean your social media feed of choice?
Forum that tells you if 32GB of RAM fit into your laptop?
Are you confusing RAM with storage?
I’m pretty sure it’s tongue in cheek of the average person who doesn’t know much about tech.
That’s kinda what I thought, but the way it’s presented made my question if they were serious or not.
It is tongue in cheek, yes.
You ask your AI assistant.
The thing with that is, it happily makes up business hours and venues. And you end up in some dark alley without any entertainment. Or a different kind than you envisioned…I doubt someone does this more than once or twice…