I am fucking astounded that there is still a disconnect even with high level Democrats who can’t seem to grasp that much of America is living in a completely alternate reality because of the right-wing propaganda machine, exacerbated by foreign adversaries like Russia.
Lichtman’s (one saving grace from this election I never have to hear about this charlatan) keys prove this because he never accounts for the disconnect between what we see versus those in the echo-chamber perceive.
The megaphone of disinformation and sowing of distrust of traditional media, in my view, was the single biggest reason for our loss.
I would have posted this as a post if not violative of Rule 1, but Jon Stewart’s The Weekly Show posted a great episode yesterday with a very thoughtful political theorist guest. It focuses on why the disinformation campaigns are responsible for this election.
In short: We have already reached a point where real policy and positions is no match for propaganda. Political power was decisively proven this election to derive from creating and exploiting a false reality, with multiple groups in Trump’s coalition directly and decisively voting against their interests because they simply believed Trump more than reality. In Russia this is called “political technology” and Trump followed that playbook exactly.
Is it even possible to learn that lesson in time? I don’t think so - I think we missed our last chance. Because Trump’s campaign so effectively recognized this, we can also expect them to recognize that media cannot be allowed to be independent and control of the media is how they maintain that false reality. Like Hitler, like Putin, like Xi, expect that Trump’s team - given free rein by his sycophantic House, Senate and Supreme court - will ruthlessly crack down on free press. I’d be shocked if it doesn’t happen in the first few months.
We’re about to enter a very dark time, and by the midterms, it’s likely that even with a “free and fair” election, it will be so tainted by state-sponsored misinformation there is no hope of the public voting out the right.
You just explained precisely why I’m working on a plan to get out. This country is no longer safe for my family.
You have any good candidates to suggest?
There are no safe havens for multiple reasons… there are places you can probably guess will be less bad… but there are potential worse consequences for each. For example :
- US military power already far exceeds that of every other country on Earth. It is not post WWI 🇩🇪 rearming after licking its wounds. If you go somewhere that “resists,” there is no guarantee you won’t fall under its 🎯
- COVID has seemed to have a lasting effect EVERYWHERE in the world. Look how many other countries have now elected far right wing officials. In 🇩🇪, the non-right coalition government has just collapsed.
- as an immigrant in any of those countries with newly elected right-wing anti-immigrant governments, you will be the first they punish for any perceived failures of said governments to improve their existing citizenry’s lives.
In truth, despite things like inflation getting “better” overall and other economic indicators seeming to point to improvement, an overwhelming number of constituents who participate in voting across the world have felt pain from price increases without sufficient wage increases to offset that pain… and without action being taken that “feels” like it improves people’s material conditions, they are further ripened for the 🐂-💩 scapegoating of demagogues who gladly lie to pretend they will make their lives better… so everywhere they are being elected.
It’s not fair, but history shows us this is what happens…
Also. Even some of the places that are socially nice, could easily implode economically if and when the US does.
US military power already far exceeds that of every other country on Earth.
That isn’t entirely true. Looking at soldier numbers in general, NATO without the U.S. has ~ 1.2 Million active, the U.S. as a whole over all branches has roughly 1.4 Million - that’s however including National Guard. Without that, it’s 1.1 Million. Most NATO countries however do reserves different, Germany alone has 930k in Reserves (meaning, they either had military training or are receiving it on a rotational basis), the U.S. has ~ 300k. All of that combined gives Europe roughly 2.5 Million Soldiers that can be put in to service very fast. Since organizational structures are very similar on all accounts, if need be, that would happen fast. Remember, the EU also has very similar guarantees as NATO, meaning if one is attacked, the others vowed to help. If Europe actually tried with their military spending, we’d be able to outspend the U.S. by a lot - easily. Keep in mind…we’re (=Europe) supplying Ukraine with more than the U.S. does, and most of our arms industry is still not even trying. Airbus, Rheinmetall, BAE, KMW, Navantia, Safran, ThyssenKrupp…they are all “trotting along” right now. Except Nuclear Threats, the U.S. hasn’t got much to “best” others, IF Europe actually kicks in to gear (granted, that all needs the European Union not to crumble as well…) even technology wise the U.S. isn’t that “overwhelming”. Look up U33 and U32 - they both sank entire U.S. Carrier Groups in many simulations regularly - they still do. Hell, they even put two Los-Angeles class U-Boats to shame, they sunk them too. Most of the European U-Boats are pretty similar on that aspect as well, the Italians actually have the same and the French Triomphant-class isn’t that bad either.
Germany’s “collapse” of a Coalition is not necessarily something unprecedent. It has happened a few times and is also a sign for a very healthy democracy. In Germany, most of the governing power comes from ministries and state secretaries - those do not change with the collapse of a coalition. Our system is more robust than that of the U.S. against those kinds of issues (it isn’t when the truth just get’s thrown out of the window) - however, i also believe that the U.S. System is more robust than most of you give it credit.
And i agree, it’s unfair, but as an educated immigrant, actually wanting to work and putting the effort in to learn the language and be considerate of the culture - you’ll be fine, even with more right leaning governments throughout Europe.
Depends. Some countries are easier to immigrate to than others. Ireland is pretty easy, if you have relatively recent Irish ancestry. Personally, I’m looking into Canada.
I have three Irish-German grandparents, and one West African grandparent. My DNA has me about 39% Irish. Is this a possibility for me?
You are automatically an Irish citizen if one of your parents was an Irish citizen who was born in Ireland. You can become an Irish citizen if one of your grandparents was born in Ireland, or you can become an Irish citizen if one of your parents was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth, but was not born in Ireland.
Thank you. Unfortunately I’m deeply American in my roots.
I watched that as well yesterday. Somber albeit pointed episode. Political theology nails it because we’re entering a phase (see Michael Flynn going around promoting the Christian Nationalist movement) where GOP leadership is elevated to a religious faith. And we all know arguments of reason or ethics do not work on those whose belief set is forged on blind faith and loyalty.
It’s probably best that we hope for the best and expect the worst. At this point, it seems the only way things will course-correct is when it all comes crashing down. And that won’t be pretty for anyone.
Thank you for that. I’m not normally a podcast watcher and didn’t know Jon had one. I’ll check it out!
Lichtman’s still 10 for 11 (considering that Gore did win FL, only to have the SC overturn the results), so I think he’ll still be around for a while.
Agreed on the media silos though - the right-wing media ecosystem is almost wholly disconnected from reality and any other viewpoints.
If that’s the terrain you have to fight on, there’s not much you can do about it.
There is, but the solution comes before the indoctrination. It’s much easier to vaccinate and inoculate before being infected with the mental illness. After that, the best defense really is just a bullet. You can’t operate a functional democracy when the majority of the population are demented and actively working to tear it apart.
Well said. I hesitate to say I’ve studied this but it’s been a subject of passion of mine for some time now, and I’ve written long write-ups on how to, as you say exactly, inoculate people from mis/disinformation. However, once people lose their anchor to reality, it is extremely hard to get them back.
Are there ways out of our predicament? Maybe. And that’s a big maybe. Our moves have to be perfect from hereon out but even so… We may be beyond the point of no return and now the whole thing may have to come crashing down.
Have you learned anything useful on inoculation and deprogramming? I’ve been looking as well but haven’t found much.
Is it like you say, have a true set of idea anchors? But still what if it’s a false anchor?
On a widespread scale, or say individually with someone you know?
Generally speaking, you need to treat it like a substance addiction. For these people, this alternate reality is an escapism; the reaction of anger to fear & disgust is actually a physical addiction; the neural pathways become entrenched and habituated to an extent that anything counter this quite literally takes more mental effort to trudge through — like going off the beaten path and into the jungle.
What this means is cutting off the source and putting them into rehab; in this case, rehab being you having their undivided attention for a couple weeks until you can break through. As you can see, the problem is that (1) You are competing with someone who has a cellphone in their hands 24/7 and you cannot compete with that, time-wise. (2) Even if you can convince this person to go out on a camping trip with you, it takes a certain tact and relationship to actually raise this without entirely burning the bridge and having them shut down.
People fall down this rabbit-hole most frequently due to self-loathing or trauma. It’s why the likes of incels are such easy targets. Lonely, young men being told wrong advice get upset that said advice isn’t working and they just get increasingly radicalized. It’s just another example of Shock Doctrine as described by Naomi Klein. When people are broken down and at their most vulnerable, they are most susceptible to radical changes in personality.
It’s another reason why men in their mid-life crisis also run through this. “It’s the immigrant to blame for me being jobless; not me!”
My family across several generations shifted from being Republican to progressive Democrat. The circumstances for us was unique and I don’t even know if we could’ve broken out in this day compared to 20-years-ago.
The other boring answer is good education, but that’s a long-term investment that takes so long to yield results, and even that is being undermined at every turn. Healthy community; healthy idols can be anchors. They have for me, anyway.
You might be interested in the documentary, “The Brainwashing of My Dad.” It ends on a somewhat positive note.
I’ll check out the documentary, and thanks for your reply.
I agree, my working conclusion for a while has been that I can’t compete with the phone and to focus on my wellbeing by reducing contact.
The deprogramming things I’ve looked at require a person to be with the person being deprogrammed almost all the time. You have to be able to shut down their bullshit immediately, and that’s if they already trust you. It’s basically impossible for most of us to do because we have fucking jobs.
Yeah billionaires with their finger on the media scale. We can’t allow them to get away with this.
Not much we can do, is there?
We lick our wounds and then we organize and prepare starting now and not wait until the next election
Organize to do what?
To put up another milquetoast centrist who fails to capture the attention of the working class? Or, more likely, is barred from running by the fascist regime?
Well, how has it been done successfully in other countries?
Jesus, when it’s put that way… Holy fuck. We’re not in a good place
Not the first time
For those unfamiliar with Minnesotan language, that’s what this vow is.
He will fight Project 2025 as state governor, which does give him powers the president can’t just take. “While working to understand the appeal” means he acknowledges that Magats are idiots and will also work on a way to get through their thick skulls to also reject the Presidents agenda.
Minnesota nice is fun :)
Edit: another interpretation would be he said to Trump supporters: “Y’all need Jesus.”
They all already have Jesus, that fat orange spawn of Satan. The is to he worshipped
And nothing was learned, yet again.
Not true. We learned that apparently being decent, caring, and empathetic won’t win against racism, misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, and hate.
I’m kinda in love with Walz right now. Hopefully he’ll be my governor soon™. Fuck Greg Abbott. Just hope I manage to get out before Texas fascists go full nuts.
You could also come over to Illinois. It’s shaping up to be a stronhold for the Trump resistance as well.
I’m looking into learning Dutch and going to Denmark, tbh. Cruz winning, Abbott, Paxton, Patrick, and the rest being complete Trumpian ass-slurpers does not give me any hope for Texas going Blue
I can barely see him from over the pond but he seems somewhat decent
If I’m not mistaken, his policies are a big reason why Minnesota is one of the big LGBT travel destinations right now. I think he was the governor who signed legal weed into law and supported really strong trans and LGBT healthcare bills that do things like force health insurance to cover gender-affirming care.
About weed, funniest shit, republicans didn’t understand the language in a bill pushing for hemp-derived edibles and decided to push it through lol https://www.npr.org/2022/07/02/1109576113/minnesota-thc-edibles-accident-delta-8
I think that’s a different bill than our smokeable marijuana bill but you gotta appreciate the irony
After an amendment passed unanimously during a Minnesota legislative session in May, state Sen. Abeler jokingly said: “That doesn’t legalize marijuana — we just didn’t do that, did we?”
And he did that all (and more) with a 1 seat majority in both houses of the state legislature. Unfortunately, it looks like thd house is going to be a tie so we’re not likely to see any more big legislation for the next two years.
That does sound good
His appeal? Anger is a more powerful motivator than fear.
It’s not just anger. The majority of voters take actual delight in harming others, even when the cost of doing so is harming themselves too.
Collectively, humans are evil to the core. That’s the problem that Trump is a symptom of - even if he chokes to death on Putin’s dick right now the problem isn’t going to go away. Some other Nazi will fill in and the 73 million traitors that voted for Trump will just redirect their support to the next guy.
I think you’re absolutely right about the hate vs. fear. But when the charismatic (Trump? Ew, how?) cult leader dies, sometimes the cult doesn’t have anyone else they all believe in, and it breaks apart. I’m hoping for that.
Trump has proven that his style of campaign is effective. It’s now a solidified approach to the presidency.
This behavior will absolutely continue after Trump is gone.
I agree that the behavior will absolutely continue. But if the new leader doesn’t have that special “something” that everyone rallies around, the cult divides.
Again, I still have no idea what people see in Trump or why anyone would choose to follow him. But there’s obviously something about him that appeals to them. Visible anger and hate for everyone not in the cult? Promises to destroy them all? Idk.
charismatic (Trump? Ew, how?)
I’ve been calling it carnival barker energy. It’s not exactly charisma, it’s stage presence comprised mostly of speed, energy, and volume. And it’s fucking catnip to morons apparently.
So why can’t all that hate be used back against the ignoramuses and wannabe fascists?
I’ve been wondering that myself.
I think you’re right. It may be hate vs. fear.
it’s hate.
if people were scared or fearful, they would have kept the evil locked away in a sand trap in south florida.
Trump has propaganda from republicans, billionaires and foreign actors helping him. Anger is just one of the tools used with propaganda.
Maybe next time have the Dems focus on the economy first and foremost, even if its lies, and they’ll win
Lies won’t work as well on people who have a world view anywhere close to reality. That’s why good fascism isn’t a thing.
Clearly anything can be the truth. Just yell loud, have a good propaganda arm, and a solid amount of cult members.
GDI Walz, it’s ok to be out of touch and confused, but keep the fucking quiet part quiet. Figure it out and fix it, reboot the DNC to the left and give us something compelling. I voted, but more as a sense of duty than actual being hopeful for the future.
I think the candor will help build trust.
No it’s how we state this shit in Minnesota. He knows they’re dumb and hateful. What he’s saying is that he’s going to get them to reject it too.
Well, he better do it quickly. I anticipate a round-up of dissidents in 2025.
I don’t expect that to come first. First they’ll go for the “illegals” which will likely be any brown people regardless of immigration status.
That will probably take them a couple years. But the outrage it causes will compel the “dissidents” to speak out and resist. At this point, they’ll really turn up the propaganda machine on them, demonizing them and making them easy targets. By the next election cycle (if we even have one by then), they’ll start round them up and it will all be over.
While Project 2025 suggested the use of the military as law enforcement in Democratic cities - in reality this can only work in Red States. The federation style of government gives power to the state in the form of the National Guard.
I believe there is some sort of power that enables Governors to draw up reserves too, and any federal military stationed in the State.
Sort of like the Fediverse - the instance admin ultimately decides what can and cannot be fed into their instance, and enforce their own moderation rules within it.
