As someone who supports rights for everyone because I don’t care at all about any of this stuff - I think this is right, it is to record your gender at birth. It also records their weight which changes too but we don’t change the snapshot of when you’re first born. I think that another certificate should be issued to record how a person wants to be viewed be it changing their name or gender or whatever.
Except we all know this is not done in good faith to fix a real problem. Its real intent to further push a transphobic agenda and punish people who are trans.
But this should never have been the case, the birth certificate should never have been in this discussion. I don’t want these people to be discriminated against but this is a stupid argument to have made in the first place. It is not transphobic to factually record whether a new born has a penis or a vagina - which is the entirety of what the intention of recording gender has been since the beginning of records.
Would agree, except 99% of person identification, uses sex and specifically YOUR birth certificate. For current identification purposes for anything official.
They are a legal record of your birth, get an ID for identification. I have no problem with someone changing any ID or being considered whatever they want. My only issue is the birth cert side of things.
Of course I have. I can’t recall when I got my first license at 16 years old, but I certainly haven’t needed it since then. The most I’ve ever been asked for, including by employers, is my social security card
I fail to see the major problem, then. It’s easily rectified by getting two other easily obtained id’s. You don’t even need a driver’s license, an identification card is basically the same process.
The intent of the people behind the law isn’t what I’m discussing. It is that this should never have been on the agenda, argue for inclusion and equal right but don’t argue to change a legal document that merely recorded the facts as they were at the time.
I dont disagree with with their intention but it’s not what I’m arguing against. I’m merely saying that the document should not be altered after the fact, it should remain as it was then forever more as an official recording of the facts as they were then. That’s all. Don’t change names, genders, parents, or location. Leave it as it was unless there was a legitimate factual error like misspelling a name or address.
The trump ban is something unrelated that I’m not discussing.
Both of those are false assertions, I’m sorry I don’t fit into the box you’d like. Not everyone who doesn’t subscribe to every facet of social issue as you is a trump supporter.
I don’t disagree that it is their intention.
I’m not discussing their intention, which is why the parallel doesn’t work.
However, because all other records take information from your birth certificate, this effectively bars trans people from having photo identification that aligns with their gender. This creates a safety issue for trans people every time they have to provide said photo identification.
Your birth certificate also records the name your parents gave you at birth, but we’ve allowed people to amend the document when they change their name for a long time. Why is this any different?
I didn’t answer your second part, I disagree entirely with changing your name on your birth cert too. I, again, have no problem with people changing their name but it should necessitate a new document.
Plenty of folks don’t know. There are experts that are brought in to determine confusing cases, and they sometimes get it wrong. Be happy if your genitals just match one of the obvious binaries and you don’t have this issue. But many folks do.
I don’t understand this, I get there are very rare cases of a third chromosome or gene or whatever the X and Ys are. But the vast vast majority of cases it is completely down to if the baby has a penis or a vagina. That is it, I’m a supporter of people’s rights and I don’t like appearing on the same side as horrible people but the purpose of the document is to record the facts as they stand. If experts need to be called in to determine the result, then we take their determination as the result as they are the experts. If need be put an asterisk to show there was a consensus required.
The purpose of the document is to record facts but you’re ok if those facts are wrong sometimes. That seems strange to me.
Why does the document event need a gender or sex? We’re recording that a person was born for proof of citizenship. Citizenship doesn’t require genitalia.
We’re recording for a number of reasons which includes birth of citizenship. There are important demographic reasons for why you need to know what % of your population is male versus female.
For example, policy in China where there are a larger ratio of males would need to be different than in Russia where there is a higher ratio of females.
I don’t really see the issue in all of this. A trans person should be treated as whatever gender they wanna be but they are born one sex or the other. We can’t pretend otherwise, makes no sense.
Sex. Isn’t. Binary. Intersex people exist. They exist. They are real.
I’d agree with you if there were three options: obviously male, obviously female, TBD. That would be more accurate. But to claim there are only two and you know at birth is just ignorant.
What percentage of people are born with both, or none or indistinguishable sexual organs? I’m not entirely against TBD for the record but I think your argument is disingenuous, not every person who is trans is one the incredibly rare circumstances where this issue arises.
Some people live as one gender for a long time before transitioning and while I’m happy for them to do as they please and live a safe and happy life I don’t think they should change their birth cert. Official documents are used for am enormous amount of statistics and changing them serves only to confuse the data and misrepresent facts. All that is needed is an amendment document that shows that while their birth cert says male they are now female. That’s it
You are going through ridiculous leaps and lengths to avoid the obvious simple solution that already exists today. And for what? A strange need for a document to be immutable? Perfection of historical information?
Those seem like tenuous reasons do something that actively takes options from people who value those options.
You’re off by about 1000-3500 according to the study i just found. “The estimated frequency of genital ambiguity is reported to be in the range of 1:2000-1:4500”
If the document was the summary of the person then fine change it. If the only people that were looking to change it were those affected by genital ambiguity mentioned then fine change it. But it isn’t the case, not everyone who is trans is someone like that, and they don’t have to be. They were born as one gender and they want to live as another, that’s fine but don’t change records to suit that. You don’t move house and change your birth location.
A strange need for a document to be immutable? Perfection of historical information?
Is it so strange that someone expects an official document about someone’s birth to accurately represent that birth?
But is that what we want? Fuck it, let’s change the past and pretend it’s something that’s a little more pleasant. It’s “for a good reason”. To make someone feel better. Get rid of anything that might cause discomfort while you’re at it. Let’s get rid of slavery - might make people feel uncomfortable. Seems you agree more with DeSantis’s fascist revisionism than you might initially expect.
People deserve to be treated with dignity and respect no matter who they are. But we cannot start playing make believe to protect feelings. A rock is a rock is a rock. If you were born a male then you were born a male end of story.
You can transition after, and people should show you respect and kindness. But forever and for the rest of history you would have been born a male.
It makes me feel so frustrated how this ideology has impregnated the left. We are losing the war against fascism and here we are focusing on absolute absurdities.
If you’re adopted, you can get your birth certificate amended to put the names of your adoptive parents on it. If you change your name, you can do the same. They’re exclusively singling out gender here.
You make a good point. We can change who we are but we can’t change who we were.
I can just see right wingers trying to make yet more laws to fuck over trans people tho saying they can only use their “assigned at birth certificate” or something.
I don’t agree that there is a difference, I have tried but they were used interchangeably for so long. I think that people should be allowed to feel and be whoever they want but I don’t understand how that relates back to gender or sex on your birth cert.
As someone who supports rights for everyone because I don’t care at all about any of this stuff - I think this is right, it is to record your gender at birth. It also records their weight which changes too but we don’t change the snapshot of when you’re first born. I think that another certificate should be issued to record how a person wants to be viewed be it changing their name or gender or whatever.
Except we all know this is not done in good faith to fix a real problem. Its real intent to further push a transphobic agenda and punish people who are trans.
But this should never have been the case, the birth certificate should never have been in this discussion. I don’t want these people to be discriminated against but this is a stupid argument to have made in the first place. It is not transphobic to factually record whether a new born has a penis or a vagina - which is the entirety of what the intention of recording gender has been since the beginning of records.
Would agree, except 99% of person identification, uses sex and specifically YOUR birth certificate. For current identification purposes for anything official.
Birth certificates are not used for any medical purpose. They are entirely for identification.
They are a legal record of your birth, get an ID for identification. I have no problem with someone changing any ID or being considered whatever they want. My only issue is the birth cert side of things.
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I am middle aged and have never had to present my birth cert. Ever. I don’t think I even possess it.
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Of course I have. I can’t recall when I got my first license at 16 years old, but I certainly haven’t needed it since then. The most I’ve ever been asked for, including by employers, is my social security card
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I fail to see the major problem, then. It’s easily rectified by getting two other easily obtained id’s. You don’t even need a driver’s license, an identification card is basically the same process.
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“It doesn’t effect me, so it’s not a problem for anyone else.”
This is a bad take. This law’s intent is 100% to hurt trans people. Don’t go looking for reason and justifying it.
The intent of the people behind the law isn’t what I’m discussing. It is that this should never have been on the agenda, argue for inclusion and equal right but don’t argue to change a legal document that merely recorded the facts as they were at the time.
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I dont disagree with with their intention but it’s not what I’m arguing against. I’m merely saying that the document should not be altered after the fact, it should remain as it was then forever more as an official recording of the facts as they were then. That’s all. Don’t change names, genders, parents, or location. Leave it as it was unless there was a legitimate factual error like misspelling a name or address.
The trump ban is something unrelated that I’m not discussing.
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Both of those are false assertions, I’m sorry I don’t fit into the box you’d like. Not everyone who doesn’t subscribe to every facet of social issue as you is a trump supporter.
I don’t disagree that it is their intention.
I’m not discussing their intention, which is why the parallel doesn’t work.
However, because all other records take information from your birth certificate, this effectively bars trans people from having photo identification that aligns with their gender. This creates a safety issue for trans people every time they have to provide said photo identification.
Your birth certificate also records the name your parents gave you at birth, but we’ve allowed people to amend the document when they change their name for a long time. Why is this any different?
Safety issue? If someone is in danger from showing an ID they’re probably in danger already. Regular people wouldn’t care less.
Absolutely, this makes a lot of sense as to why this is dangerous and as to why these people need to change their birth cert.
But the answer to it is to have another legal document created to document the transition.
I didn’t answer your second part, I disagree entirely with changing your name on your birth cert too. I, again, have no problem with people changing their name but it should necessitate a new document.
Plenty of folks don’t know. There are experts that are brought in to determine confusing cases, and they sometimes get it wrong. Be happy if your genitals just match one of the obvious binaries and you don’t have this issue. But many folks do.
I don’t understand this, I get there are very rare cases of a third chromosome or gene or whatever the X and Ys are. But the vast vast majority of cases it is completely down to if the baby has a penis or a vagina. That is it, I’m a supporter of people’s rights and I don’t like appearing on the same side as horrible people but the purpose of the document is to record the facts as they stand. If experts need to be called in to determine the result, then we take their determination as the result as they are the experts. If need be put an asterisk to show there was a consensus required.
The purpose of the document is to record facts but you’re ok if those facts are wrong sometimes. That seems strange to me.
Why does the document event need a gender or sex? We’re recording that a person was born for proof of citizenship. Citizenship doesn’t require genitalia.
We’re recording for a number of reasons which includes birth of citizenship. There are important demographic reasons for why you need to know what % of your population is male versus female.
For example, policy in China where there are a larger ratio of males would need to be different than in Russia where there is a higher ratio of females.
I don’t really see the issue in all of this. A trans person should be treated as whatever gender they wanna be but they are born one sex or the other. We can’t pretend otherwise, makes no sense.
Sex. Isn’t. Binary. Intersex people exist. They exist. They are real.
I’d agree with you if there were three options: obviously male, obviously female, TBD. That would be more accurate. But to claim there are only two and you know at birth is just ignorant.
Ok then put TBD on ones you can’t tell at birth. Sure, that makes sense. There are exceptions to everything.
What percentage of people are born with both, or none or indistinguishable sexual organs? I’m not entirely against TBD for the record but I think your argument is disingenuous, not every person who is trans is one the incredibly rare circumstances where this issue arises.
Some people live as one gender for a long time before transitioning and while I’m happy for them to do as they please and live a safe and happy life I don’t think they should change their birth cert. Official documents are used for am enormous amount of statistics and changing them serves only to confuse the data and misrepresent facts. All that is needed is an amendment document that shows that while their birth cert says male they are now female. That’s it
Around 1in 1,000.
You are going through ridiculous leaps and lengths to avoid the obvious simple solution that already exists today. And for what? A strange need for a document to be immutable? Perfection of historical information?
Those seem like tenuous reasons do something that actively takes options from people who value those options.
You’re off by about 1000-3500 according to the study i just found. “The estimated frequency of genital ambiguity is reported to be in the range of 1:2000-1:4500”
If the document was the summary of the person then fine change it. If the only people that were looking to change it were those affected by genital ambiguity mentioned then fine change it. But it isn’t the case, not everyone who is trans is someone like that, and they don’t have to be. They were born as one gender and they want to live as another, that’s fine but don’t change records to suit that. You don’t move house and change your birth location.
Is it so strange that someone expects an official document about someone’s birth to accurately represent that birth?
But is that what we want? Fuck it, let’s change the past and pretend it’s something that’s a little more pleasant. It’s “for a good reason”. To make someone feel better. Get rid of anything that might cause discomfort while you’re at it. Let’s get rid of slavery - might make people feel uncomfortable. Seems you agree more with DeSantis’s fascist revisionism than you might initially expect.
People deserve to be treated with dignity and respect no matter who they are. But we cannot start playing make believe to protect feelings. A rock is a rock is a rock. If you were born a male then you were born a male end of story.
You can transition after, and people should show you respect and kindness. But forever and for the rest of history you would have been born a male.
It makes me feel so frustrated how this ideology has impregnated the left. We are losing the war against fascism and here we are focusing on absolute absurdities.
If you’re adopted, you can get your birth certificate amended to put the names of your adoptive parents on it. If you change your name, you can do the same. They’re exclusively singling out gender here.
You make a good point. We can change who we are but we can’t change who we were.
I can just see right wingers trying to make yet more laws to fuck over trans people tho saying they can only use their “assigned at birth certificate” or something.
That’s exactly it, and it’s really annoying for people to assume I’m a right winger because I have a very slight and specific difference of opinion.
I could see them doing just that and it should be tackled every single time.
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It records your sex and that never changes with current technology.
We should change the field to gender if we want people to change it.
I don’t agree that there is a difference, I have tried but they were used interchangeably for so long. I think that people should be allowed to feel and be whoever they want but I don’t understand how that relates back to gender or sex on your birth cert.