There is no “both sides are equal” argument here, Republicans are obviously worse.
I agree that we should examine who is opposing tax raises for billionaires. And we agree Repubs are horrible, so just consider when Democrats had full control of Congress and the WH- what stopped them then?
Democrats can’t pass economic populism, even when they have full control, due to their corporate donors, lobbyists, the DNC, etc. This Democratic establishment has prevented anything left-of-center from getting passed in my lifetime.
so just consider when Democrats had full control of Congress and the WH- what stopped them then?
They had control for ~70 days and in that period they passed the largest healthcare overhaul in a generation (that’s still incredibly popular). Seems to me like they got some serious shit done when we gave them a relatively small period of actual control. The idea that they didn’t get anything done is completely ahistorical.
Yes that is exactly my point, Dems had full control and they still passed a right wing healthcare plan.
In that 70 days they abandoned a public option and quickly adopted Romneycare. Then they added even more corporate subsidies and giveaways for health insurance companies.
The Democrats abandoned the public option? I seem to remember Senator Lieberman and the GOP being the ones that blocked that.
So the Democrats propose legislation, the GOP fights tooth and nail to water down and make it worse at every possible step knowing the Democrats don’t have the seats needed to pass the original legislation, and your takeaway from that is that Democrats are passing right wing policy?
I’m sorry you don’t like the ACA, but the solution to your problem is electing more progressive Democrats, the thing you seem to be advocating against. Do you have a solution or do you just want to say “Democrats bad” and act like the party of domestic terrorists across the aisle doesn’t exist?
We can agree that Republicans are horrible and make everything worse, but how is that applicable in the case of the ACA?
The ACA got exactly 0 Republican votes. There was no reason to negotiate or even listen to Republicans in this case. It was Democrats doing it to themselves. And as I have already established, yes the ACA is a right wing bill.
As for advocating for progressive ideals, I am doing that when I call out the hypocrisy and corruption of the corporate Dems. It’s becoming very difficult to tell the difference between a modern corporate Dem and a 90s-00s Republican, and that scares me.
I think it’s a good thing to say “Democrats bad” when they are in fact bad. Whatever demons lurk on the other side of the aisle does not change this. Putting your fingers in your ears and yelling “vote blue no matter who” is not a solution.
As for advocating for progressive ideals, I am doing that when I call out the hypocrisy and corruption of the corporate Dems
This is absolutely meaningless unless you put it in context and offer solutions. You aren’t offering anything of value to the discourse of how to improve the country or the Democratic Party.
I have absolutely no issue criticizing the Democratic Party, especially right wing Democrats. The Democratic party is incredibly diverse from an ideological perspective, there are plenty of good progressives pushing for the policies we both agree on. The only way we can get that shit done is by gaining more support. So instead of painting the entire party as a bunch of corporate goons with nothing to offer, why not advocate for the progressive wing and grow their influence by primarying conservative Democrats? You want to get rid of hypocrisy and corruption, there’s your road map.
My original intention here was to try to convince people to think critically when hearing a politician’s stump speech, which I believe is adding value to the discourse.
I surely didn’t have lofty goals to “improve the country or the Democratic Party” when I opened Lemmy today lol.
And I do believe the DNC and the donor class are a bunch of corporate goons who have little to offer, and almost all Democratic politicians are subservient to this superstructure.
Let me ask you, how do you suggest we overcome the institutional hurdles when running a progressive primary challenge? The last 2 progressive primary challengers I volunteered for had extreme problems finding vendors to supply them with the basic supplies that they need to run a campaign. This is because the DNC has a policy of blacklisting any vendors that work with a progressive primary challenger.
Organizing and bring more people into the tent. At the end of the day, there aren’t enough progressives in the Democratic Party right now. We have not done a good job getting people who support progressive ideas out to vote. Claiming that all Democrats are bound to the DNC and corporations doesn’t help, it actually hurts progressives more than anything. Why would a voter show up to a primary to boot someone like Gottheimer if they think it’s a pointless endeavor?
Having DNC support is an advantage for sure, but that doesn’t mean we can’t win elections. Progressives have made gains every election in spite of the DNC. If you’re already volunteering for progressive candidates, that’s great, keep doing that. Recruit people. Donate money if you can. Talk to people you know. Instead of saying only the party is controlled by goons point out the opportunities we have to make the party more progressive and why it matters. We as individuals have to make up for the advantage that a conservative Democrat has being backed by the DNC. It won’t come from anywhere else.
I’ve posted this elsewhere, but look at the “Conservative” playbook for the last 40 years. Right wing crazies were able to take over the entire Republican party this way. They’ve hit school boards, city councils, statehouses, and congress with hard right primary opponents for decades. They were able to slowly rachet the party further and further right.
Their goals are abhorrent, but the strategy is sound. This is a game of incremental progress and electoral strategy. We will never topple the Democratic donor class or establishment party members until we understand that. They’ve fortified their position. We need a siege, not a bomb. A bomb leaves us with nothing to improve. And whether we like it or not, right now the Democratic Party/DNC is what is keeping the GOP from erasing every bit of progress we’ve made.
Well it sounds like we agree on most things then, except on how to communicate to voters. I have found that being honest with voters about things like the corruption of the DNC and the serious flaws of the ACA actually helps to win them over.
Try to do a door knocking campaign and act like the Democratic Party is perfect, most voters will smell the bullshit.
It only takes a few seconds to say “yes most Democrats are corporate lackeys, but not this candidate, and here’s why…” Acknowledging the flaws of the party does not suppress turnout. It is the flaws themselves that do the suppression.
There is no “both sides are equal” argument here, Republicans are obviously worse.
I agree that we should examine who is opposing tax raises for billionaires. And we agree Repubs are horrible, so just consider when Democrats had full control of Congress and the WH- what stopped them then?
Democrats can’t pass economic populism, even when they have full control, due to their corporate donors, lobbyists, the DNC, etc. This Democratic establishment has prevented anything left-of-center from getting passed in my lifetime.
They had control for ~70 days and in that period they passed the largest healthcare overhaul in a generation (that’s still incredibly popular). Seems to me like they got some serious shit done when we gave them a relatively small period of actual control. The idea that they didn’t get anything done is completely ahistorical.
Yes that is exactly my point, Dems had full control and they still passed a right wing healthcare plan.
In that 70 days they abandoned a public option and quickly adopted Romneycare. Then they added even more corporate subsidies and giveaways for health insurance companies.
The Democrats abandoned the public option? I seem to remember Senator Lieberman and the GOP being the ones that blocked that.
So the Democrats propose legislation, the GOP fights tooth and nail to water down and make it worse at every possible step knowing the Democrats don’t have the seats needed to pass the original legislation, and your takeaway from that is that Democrats are passing right wing policy?
I’m sorry you don’t like the ACA, but the solution to your problem is electing more progressive Democrats, the thing you seem to be advocating against. Do you have a solution or do you just want to say “Democrats bad” and act like the party of domestic terrorists across the aisle doesn’t exist?
We can agree that Republicans are horrible and make everything worse, but how is that applicable in the case of the ACA?
The ACA got exactly 0 Republican votes. There was no reason to negotiate or even listen to Republicans in this case. It was Democrats doing it to themselves. And as I have already established, yes the ACA is a right wing bill.
As for advocating for progressive ideals, I am doing that when I call out the hypocrisy and corruption of the corporate Dems. It’s becoming very difficult to tell the difference between a modern corporate Dem and a 90s-00s Republican, and that scares me.
I think it’s a good thing to say “Democrats bad” when they are in fact bad. Whatever demons lurk on the other side of the aisle does not change this. Putting your fingers in your ears and yelling “vote blue no matter who” is not a solution.
This is absolutely meaningless unless you put it in context and offer solutions. You aren’t offering anything of value to the discourse of how to improve the country or the Democratic Party.
I have absolutely no issue criticizing the Democratic Party, especially right wing Democrats. The Democratic party is incredibly diverse from an ideological perspective, there are plenty of good progressives pushing for the policies we both agree on. The only way we can get that shit done is by gaining more support. So instead of painting the entire party as a bunch of corporate goons with nothing to offer, why not advocate for the progressive wing and grow their influence by primarying conservative Democrats? You want to get rid of hypocrisy and corruption, there’s your road map.
My original intention here was to try to convince people to think critically when hearing a politician’s stump speech, which I believe is adding value to the discourse.
I surely didn’t have lofty goals to “improve the country or the Democratic Party” when I opened Lemmy today lol.
And I do believe the DNC and the donor class are a bunch of corporate goons who have little to offer, and almost all Democratic politicians are subservient to this superstructure.
Let me ask you, how do you suggest we overcome the institutional hurdles when running a progressive primary challenge? The last 2 progressive primary challengers I volunteered for had extreme problems finding vendors to supply them with the basic supplies that they need to run a campaign. This is because the DNC has a policy of blacklisting any vendors that work with a progressive primary challenger.
Organizing and bring more people into the tent. At the end of the day, there aren’t enough progressives in the Democratic Party right now. We have not done a good job getting people who support progressive ideas out to vote. Claiming that all Democrats are bound to the DNC and corporations doesn’t help, it actually hurts progressives more than anything. Why would a voter show up to a primary to boot someone like Gottheimer if they think it’s a pointless endeavor?
Having DNC support is an advantage for sure, but that doesn’t mean we can’t win elections. Progressives have made gains every election in spite of the DNC. If you’re already volunteering for progressive candidates, that’s great, keep doing that. Recruit people. Donate money if you can. Talk to people you know. Instead of saying only the party is controlled by goons point out the opportunities we have to make the party more progressive and why it matters. We as individuals have to make up for the advantage that a conservative Democrat has being backed by the DNC. It won’t come from anywhere else.
I’ve posted this elsewhere, but look at the “Conservative” playbook for the last 40 years. Right wing crazies were able to take over the entire Republican party this way. They’ve hit school boards, city councils, statehouses, and congress with hard right primary opponents for decades. They were able to slowly rachet the party further and further right.
Their goals are abhorrent, but the strategy is sound. This is a game of incremental progress and electoral strategy. We will never topple the Democratic donor class or establishment party members until we understand that. They’ve fortified their position. We need a siege, not a bomb. A bomb leaves us with nothing to improve. And whether we like it or not, right now the Democratic Party/DNC is what is keeping the GOP from erasing every bit of progress we’ve made.
Well it sounds like we agree on most things then, except on how to communicate to voters. I have found that being honest with voters about things like the corruption of the DNC and the serious flaws of the ACA actually helps to win them over.
Try to do a door knocking campaign and act like the Democratic Party is perfect, most voters will smell the bullshit.
It only takes a few seconds to say “yes most Democrats are corporate lackeys, but not this candidate, and here’s why…” Acknowledging the flaws of the party does not suppress turnout. It is the flaws themselves that do the suppression.