• Nakoichi [they/them]@hexbear.net
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    1 year ago

    And what gives you the right to determine what “properly monitored and implemented referendums” are?

    Also Russia is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie just the same as the US so that argument holds zero water here.

    I am genuinely curious what your metrics for what constitutes a legitimate referendum are.

    • Lmaydev@programming.dev
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      1 year ago

      Nothing to do with me. I’m a programmer lol

      Nothing to do with the US. I wouldn’t support them invading a neighbor after a bogus vote they arranged. Whataboutism.

      Independent monitors to make sure the vote is fair.

        • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          The pure (libertarian) socialists’ ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed.

          –Michael Parenti, Blackshirts and Reds

          This is more of a comment on radlibs and baby anarchists, but it strikes me as appropriate here. It’s very easy to idealistically criticize everything that isn’t the way it should be. At some point, though, you have to address reality.

          • pingveno@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            Come on, Freedom Loving Nations like Russia don’t use them to monitor their Totally Fair and Unbiased Elections.

      • FaceDeer@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Not to mention that since 2022 this hasn’t been about just the Donbas any more.

        Indeed, last I checked Crimea wasn’t part of the Donbas either. This has never been about “protecting the self determination” of regions that so conveniently want to be invaded by Russia (according to Russia).

    • Skua@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      How does “the US is also bad” change anything about the argument? The argument was that Russia invading and annexing territory is not an expression of self-determination for the people whose homes are being annexed. The US also doing bad shit doesn’t change anything about that because “the US annexes Donbas instead of Russia” isn’t the alternative being presented here

      • FaceDeer@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        The thing that amuses me the most about whataboutism is that it’s so self-defeating if you think about it for more than just a few seconds. It only makes “sense” from the perspective of someone who thinks that everybody must support their own home country’s actions no matter what. Which is an authoritarian thing, not a democracy thing.

        It also doesn’t account for the fact that I’m not even American, so when I see those arguments my “so what” shrug is doubly intense.