- cross-posted to:
- green@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- green@lemmy.ml
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“veganism will not fix all of humanity’s problems, but no solution will be complete without it.”
Yay,vegans role! 🌳💚
Why should humans be cruel without necessity?
Because tradition: see war, crime, reality TV
The only way to win this is with affordable traditional vegan options (the stuff our grandparents used to eat, but didn’t call vegan), but with lettuce at the same price as pork and vegan cheese that is 50% fat and triple the price, most people who can’t soak their own beans, many can’t or have time to even cook, this is not going to work.
Yup. I have nothing against being Vegan and we have dramatically cut our meat… but Vegans act like it’s easy. It’s not… make it easier and not super expensive and I will go for it.
Yeah but people will continue to be misinformed about dietary protein, and think eating fruits and vegetables is for wusses.
My dad is old and fat and is out of breath when he gets into a car. He eats cheap sometimes spoiled meat 3 times a day, everything he cooks is somehow the greasiest food i have ever seen.
I have a BMI of 21. I do an average of 18000 steps a day and mountain bike on the weekend.Somehow he’s embarrassed about my vegan diet and gives me tips on how to eat right and tells me that i’m godda die soon for the past 5 years.
I have many friends like that. Bro, i need that protein. You are overweight and you don’t do any sports at all.
I dunno, i find it very odd.From what I’ve seen its often just genuine ignorance. Thinking plants are entirely carbs, needing protein for muscle so of course you only get protein from animal muscle, and that old myth of incomplete proteins. Ill be honest I had the same assumption that something like a potato is entirely carbs
In those instances, the argument I’ve found to be the most persuasive is to ask them to think about some of the strongest animals out there: gorillas, rhinos, African elephants, horses, even the cattle they chose to consume. All of those animals “get swol” while eating nothing but plants.
If they can get all the protein they need to be some of the most powerful mammals on the planet, I will probably be ok.
People don’t want to be vegan for a variety of issues.
My personal problem comes with things like not eating honey. Beekeepers keep bee populations healthy. Those bees pollinate the food vegans eat. But for some dumb ass reason vegans are against it.
I’m all for moving away from meat, but exclusion shouldn’t be the focus. The majority of people will never convert to vegan diet, but we CAN get them to replace some of what they eat with vegetarian alternatives.
No one has told you to not eat honey
Telling people to go vegan generally includes not eating honey since it’s an animal by-product, just like eggs, animal milk, or cheeses.
Now, if you want to tell them to eat a vegetarian diet, then yeah, honey, eggs, animal milk, cheese, etc, would all still be on the table.
Ok then, go plant based but eat honey. If you agree with the rest you should do it.
Fruits and vegetables are (mostly) delicious.
So is a bacon cheeseburger.
Jeez what a title. I bet most folks read the title and assume it means better for health reasons not environmental reasons.
It says environmental in the title?
Good thing both of those conclusions are true.
I’m pretty sure I read a meta analysis that concluded that a little meat is better than no meat. But that hardly matters bc when you tell someone about paleo they end up shoveling chicken, beef, and dairy down their throat with little to no vegetables and fruits (I think from the same analysis)
It’s an article about environmental impact
"The impacts of vegans were a quarter of those of high meat eaters for greenhouse gas emissions, and land use, just 27% of the impacts for water pollution, 46% for water use and 34% for biodiversity. "
But let’s be honest, you probably dont care, no one seems to care. People who do care are unusual and caring and taking action is unusual and might even earn you derision.
Personally I’m still trying to figure out whether there’s any point in trying to change anyone’s mind. I have a feeling it’s a hopeless waste of energy, which is terrible. If the people do do care lose all will to try to encourage others to see what seems obvious then nothing will get better, it will probably get worse.
I think a solution is going to be less about changing minds, and more about changing incentives.
Meat-free food should be cheaper and easier. Walking into a supermarket or convenience store, one should be greeted with affordable, tasty, plant-based meals. The more affordable and accessible we make plant-based meals, the more people are going to eat them. And showing people that they can taste just as good as meat-based meals, will mean people won’t immediately steer clear of them.
It’d also be great if they were nutritionally equivalent.
Plant based meats aren’t equivalent to animal meat on that front.
Plant-based diets are usually superior, health-wise, to meat-based diets.
There are a couple of nutrients that vegan diets at one point may have fell short in, like B12 and D being common examples, but at this point those are present in fortified vegan milks or breads.
The only other ones I can think of off the top of my head are a fatty acid present in fish, that is easily supplemented. Or less essential nutrients like taurine, which are also easily supplemented if one finds that they really need higher levels.
It can be difficult to get enough protein with vegan options for people who aren’t knowledgeable about the options.
There have been multiple scientific studies asking whether vegans get enough protein. The conclusion is always that they do. Here is one of them.
I didn’t say they don’t, I said it’s difficult for people who don’t know how. You have to spend time on education when you go vegan.
Not really. Protein is not something particularly difficult in a reasonably balanced vegan diet, for most people. There are plenty of dietary sources of protein in vegan cooking.
Anybody requiring particularly high levels of protein is probably already supplementing it. Usually with vegan sources anyway.
Of all the possible deficiencies in a vegan diet, protein is by far the least of people’s, already small, worries.
I don’t give two shits about enviornmental measures, how is it by dietary measures?
Oh, right:
"avoiding all animal foods may lead to nutritional deficiencies in vitamin B12, omega-3, calcium, zinc, iron, magnesium, and high-quality protein.
These deficiencies may be associated with increased risk for certain types of cancer, stroke, bone fractures, preterm birth, and failure to thrive. Avoiding consumption of animal-sourced food may also be related to higher rates of depression and anxiety. Hair loss, weak bones, muscle wasting, skin rashes, hypothyroidism, and anemia are other issues that have been observed in those strictly following a vegan diet."
Notice the may.
Eating animal foods is also linked to increased risk of certain types of cancer, stroke, etc. It’s totally possible to avoid malnutrition even on a vegan diet. It just requires some consideration.
The full paper promotes a plant-forward diet supplemented with modest amounts of nose-to-tail animal consumption. Even this paper isn’t promoting the rampant consumption of animal muscle typical of western diets.
Ever heard of supplements? And if you eat nuts and seeds you knock most pf what you listed out of your needs diet wise.
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B12 is fed to animals. This is where the b12 comes from. Meat eaters are having their food supplemented also.
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There are many plant foods rich in omega 3 fatty acids with good omega ratios. Such as flax, hemp seeds, and chia.
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Minerals are common in plant foods, very common. For example, kidney beans and leafy greens.
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The idea of vegans diets being deficient in protein is laughable and intentionally misleading. For example, beans on toast is a complete protein source.
These articles are either aimed at college students, greatly misinformed, or shills for animal agriculture.–
As for the health aspects. For anyone with a genuine curiosity for an argument in good faith see https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-019-0552-0
Jordan’s statement on health is very misleading.
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Even better results can be achieved by unaliving yourself.
Also in case anyone wanted to know without reading the paper they define “high” meat eaters as “(≥100 g d−1)” so I assume more then 100grams a day.
Your math is flawed:
A plant based diet reduces the impact by -3/4, your solution by -1
If i convince 4 others to do the same, or 8 to reduce it by half my impact is -3 not counting cascading effects.
That is if you would follow trough with your suggestion which I have doubts. So not only is your solution not better, it is worse and you don’t act the way you propose.
What if I, like above, convince 4 others to do the same?
(oh do we do that whole /s thing here?)
How big is your suicide cult right now? I have been vegan for over 5 years and made a impact on many others while you talk smart on the internet. You just justify not taking responsibility with a stupid hyperbolic example you don’t follow trough. I can advocate going vegan because I follow trough. You, you are just pathetic.
ahhh, I get it now. Here I can perhaps help this misunderstanding a little; not everything has to be a cult or cult like. Sometimes I like to make a little joke on the math provided but that does not mean I am inactive or not taking responsibility.
Sure, most responsible murder suicide cult ever.
this is only true if you believe the myth that you’re responsible for your"carbon footprint" instead of the people who are actually making the emissions.
Just because one is paying someone to create emissions does not make them responsible because someone else did it?
they create the emissions without being paid.
ah, they use their private money to burn oil in their backyard. alright.
the animal industry would just keep breeding and abusing animals despite no one buying their stuff. OK.
you don’t seem to understand how linear time works. polluters pollute before anyone buys their product. whether anyone buys the product or not, the pollution has already happened.
Ah, the “the damage is already done” argument. Has anyone told you that you pay for the next victim of the industry? Buying the product supports the industry and keeps it alive.
Maybe you have no concept of future.
You know what does even better than unaliving yourself? Andreas Malming an oil pipeline.
I think this is the right attitude to have (even if the oil spill would be worse then the oil delivered), the idea that you should take personal responsibility for environmental impact just glosses over how something like 4/5ths of all pollution is caused by large corporations manly in heavy industry. I don’t think this is a bad paper, just a bit thin on core work (it was all survey based, and assumes impact from other studies).
People should be aiming a bit higher to make the changes they are stating.
I agree with you one hundred percent on the balance between corporate and individual responsibility (and that balance falling basically all the way on the corporate side), but I also think it helps to know just how much worse meat eating consumers are for the planet than vegan consumers so we know how thoroughly to blame the dairy and meat lobby, the advertising industry, the fast food industry, and anyone else who puts their thumb on the scale of what could be healthy consumption habits otherwise. Your observations on the methodology sound pretty reasonable too
Yes I am on the same page mostly but this paper does not actually cover the impact of a vegan diet nor all the situations that can arise. There needs to be a lot more work on the large scale impacts of many diets to really get the best dialed in. I think the huge factory farms are the main issue, but what is not mentioned are the huge factory farms are not all raising meat and that depending on location the transportation impact is larger then the damage done when producing (think of bananas for example). I have worked on large cash cropping operations (canola, soy and some corn) and was frankly shocked at how little thought was put into any sort of environmental impact.
In contrast I have a neighbor who turned an old abandoned property (less then 5 acres) into a small homestead for their family. They have some of trouble growing much of anything on that land (they had to bring in soil and build cold frames), but they have no issues grazing with their goats, sheep, chickens and one cow (whose name is Daisy and was raised like a dog). They seem to have drastically reduced the environmental impact of the family and may have even reduced below say a vegan living in a large metro center, but this would not work for most of the worlds population and is not scale able. I guess I just think more work has to be done to figure this out.
But at what cost…?!?
That’s the fun part. None, really. I still eat like a king, my meals might even be tastier nowadays.
I actually have no problems with vegans or vegetarians. If you’re doing it for your own reasons that great. If you’re yelling at me that “meat is murder and chicken eggs are rape” then you’re a crazy person.
I just like the taste of meat, and the benefits of vegetarian or vegan diets are not worth the trouble right now. If plant alternatives price out eggs, then I’ll switch. Until then, I’m just buying the best food I can afford.
Edit: fixed “have to problems” to “have no peoblems”
I’ll be the crazy person. Where does meat come from, it not from murder?
Yeah, but that murder is worth it.
OK, so not crazy people then. Factual people to whom you won’t listen. That’s not really their problem.
Hard disagree, but each to their own.
