Hi! Long time lurker, first time poster. Been discussing stuff with MLs of all stripes recently, and have come across a common statement used by a lot of Maoists which frustrates me.

They seem to always fall back on statements like “The CPC allows billionaires in their ranks, so they are revisionist.”

Maoists have often used this as a kind of “gotcha” argument against more traditional MLs, or “Dengists” as they love to label us.

It’s frustrating, because…I don’t disagree really, allowing members of the bourgeoisie to hold political power is pretty much the definition of revisionism. The problem is, this feels more like a way to silence dissent or discussion rather than facilitate it. Feels like an overly simplistic hard line that simplifies history into binary divisions. Often followed by an implied “China is revisionist, therefore Maoism is the only working form of socialism.”

I’m reaching out to people to see if anyone has any ways to combat this, in a way that encourages discussion rather than it just devolving into insults or truisms hurled back and forth without thought.

  • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml
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    1 year ago

    First of all, don’t start by assuming there is anything to refute - never accept the premise of an anti-communist argument without investigating whether it’s actually true! Does China really have billionaires in the ranks of the party or is that just a myth that has been popularized to try and discredit the CPC in the eyes of gullible western leftists with ultra tendencies? If they do then how many and in what positions? What is the proportion of capitalists to non-capitalists in the party, and more importantly how much actual influence and power do they really have?

    Do not simply accept the framing of these sorts of “gotchas”, you must always dig deeper and investigate beyond the cliche phrases and surface appearances, instead looking into the actual dialectical conditions that exist. Whether or not individual capitalist elements are allowed in the ranks of the party says nothing about the fundamental class character of the party itself. If the party was supposedly taken over by revisionist and bourgeois forces, then how is it that the way the Chinese state and economy are run and the results that their system produces are still so radically different from what we see in Western capitalist systems? If the same class is supposedly in power in China as in the West why are they not experiencing the same social and economic dynamics? If the CPC is so revisionist why has it not liberalized the country into the ground and abolished itself like the CPSU did once it was hijacked by revisionists?

    And bear in mind that what happened in the USSR happened despite there technically being no capitalists whatsoever in their ruling party right up until that party voluntarily totally disempowered itself and dissolved the dictatorship of the proletariat handing the country to the enemies of the working class on a silver platter. Clearly one must look not just at the composition (though that also matters) but at the guiding ideology and the dominant political line within the party, in addition to how the party is organized and how it governs in practice.

    • DamarcusArt@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      1 year ago

      Ah! Thank you! That’s exactly the problem I’ve been having. I’ve been feeling lost when I try to understand them, because I’ve been feeling obligated to discuss these things on their terms. I can’t challenge the ideas that AES are revisionist without feeling dogpiled, and I can’t bring up ideas of how the western left is obsessed with purity and matyrdom without being told that they are sick of being accused of having a purity fetish. (Funny how MLs keep saying the same things to them and they just respond with “stop saying that” rather than analyzing why people say it) Hell, when talking to them, it feels like I can’t bring up any counter points at all without being told I’m “stifling discussion” or something. Hence my initial question. I’m perpetually on the defensive because they take these things as gospel and state them with the confidence of a smug liberal. It’s all a smokescreen, saying something technically or arguably true, that misses the forest for the trees. It’s frustrating, because I really do want to understand their arguments and point of view, but it all seems to boil down (sorry) to this sort of thing. Just ignoring overall material conditions in favour of purity tests. A shame I can’t really get this across to any Maoists without just getting banned or blocked (hell, I’ll probably be banned from at least one discord server just for posting that initial question here.) But if their response to someone trying to understand their form of Marxism is to shut them out, it only shows their lack of understanding.

      • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 year ago

        One of the things i really appreciate about ML spaces is the ability to address controversial subjects and not be immediately shut down for it in the way it happens in liberal and ultra spaces. And if someone is egregiously wrong but is engaging in an honest fashion and not just trying to troll there are always comrades who are ready and willing to educate them and explain exactly how and why they are wrong.

        Sometimes this takes a lot of effort, and it can become tiresome and we always have to remain cognizant that getting communists to waste their time having to explain the same thing over and over again is a wrecker tactic, so it may be necessary on occasion in the interest of saving time to simply point people in the direction of sources they can go to learn more.

        But on the whole i find that we can generally tell when someone is engaging in good faith and we are willing to discuss and explain. I don’t find the same willingness in ultra-left spaces to engage with arguments and do the work of investigating what the actual facts are. Reality is messy and complex and not always so black and white as they prefer to pretend.

        Instead ultras adopt the liberal preference for simple, well-established narratives that are considered true by virtue of being repeated often enough, and of course the prioritizing of moralistic idealism and ideological purity over actual materialist analysis and engaging with the real world as it exists not as we may wish it.

        • SovereignState@lemmygrad.ml
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          1 year ago

          Instead ultras adopt the liberal preference for simple, well-established narratives that are considered true by virtue of being repeated often enough, and of course the prioritizing of moralistic idealism and ideological purity over actual materialist analysis and engaging with the real world as it exists not as we may wish it

          Perhaps a little strangely, this paragraph evoked in me the memory of “All Cops Are Bastards (Including “Socialist” Ones!)” discourse I was subjected (and sometimes contributed) to in online anarchist circles.

          An example of what I'm talking about

          All virtue signaling and no substance beyond sloganeering. All cops means all cops! Wow, so true! The cool-ass slogan says “all cops”, why wouldn’t that include north Korean or Chinese cops?

          As if “police” serve nearly the same function under a dictatorship of the proletariat as they do under a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. The nonsense ‘police protect the interests of capital and private property, that is their sole purpose’… I’ve heard it often from those aforementioned anarchists. Extrapolating the roles and actions of the Amerikan police onto the socialist world is just another example of the ultra (and the orientalist)'s incredible aptitude for projection.

          Sorry, fellow Amerikans! The rest of the world is not so fucking savage as we are. DPRKorean police actually serve the people, you know, like law enforcement should in civilized society? Chinese police protect striking workers!

          Amerikan cops are the ones murdering black folk en masse, not Chinese ones, not Iranian ones, not Korean ones, not Russian ones… take your “all cops” and shove it.

          edit: (ACAB is still a good slogan tho and all Amerikan cops most certainly are, even the kindest ones)

  • Munrock ☭@lemmygrad.ml
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    1 year ago

    allowing members of the bourgeoisie to hold political power is pretty much the definition of revisionism.

    Here’s one of the holes.

    Being a member of the CPC doesn’t grant you political power any more than being a registered Democrat or Republican does. You get a vote in party matters just like Pubs and Dems get a vote in closed caucuses or primaries, and that’s the extent of ‘power’ you get it at basic membership.

    Being a wealthy party member gets you less advantage in the CPC because of the strict regulations on how money can be used in politics, i.e. you can’t influence through donation. You also get excluded from considerstion for promotion. You get the same voice as every other member, and put on committees that match your area of expertise, but you’re not on the promotion track toward the Central Committee if you’re a billionaire.

    Jack Ma built up Ant Group in the private sector and got rich but not promoted, Jiang Zemin built up First Auto Works in the state-owned sector and got promoted but not rich. They are not the same.

    • qwename@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 year ago

      allowing members of the bourgeoisie to hold political power is pretty much the definition of revisionism

      I’m also curious as to where this is defined.